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From: uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 17:01:55 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+DvAK7bGPBwu4mzUKS9juy2pz8zRWh+g34gqT0Utrg=cw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 16:31 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
napisa=C5=82(a):

>
>
> Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 17:07:28 UTC+3, uakci escreveu:
>>
>>
>>
>> niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 13:02 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
>> napisa=C5=82(a):
>>
>>>
>>> Then why are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it
>>>> doesn=E2=80=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and,=
 as I=E2=80=99ve
>>>> suggested before, move on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I initially replied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not
>>> important.
>>> So I'm engaging in it just to say that the topic is of little
>>> importance.
>>>
>>
>> Sounds oxymoronic to me.
>>
>
> pycyn started with the goal of Lojban (logic, monoparsing...) But the
> discussion shifted the topic a lot since then.
>

It has, and you're not helping it. :P


>
>
>>
>>
>>> I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We are
>>>> encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of the
>>>> language, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand=
 why you
>>>> don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people add =
=E2=80=98new and
>>>> foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}, {uin=
mo} =E2=80=94 yet, they too
>>>> are something a learner will have to catch up with.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's stability. Lojban is declared that way. New words are encouraged=
.
>>> See the CLL. New learners will know that if they read the CLL. They wil=
l be
>>> ready for it.
>>>
>>
>> They will also be ready for the inevitable, which is that there are
>> commonly used grammatical structures which the CLL wilfully omits.
>>
>>
>>> Whatever you/I/other fluent or non fluent speakers decide to change in
>>> the CLL will only lead to the community dying out.
>>>
>>
>> *Your* community.
>>
>> And it's time I made a small correction. It's been a great mistake to
>> call you a community. Communities stick together, but this make-pretend
>> community is entrenched in disputes. The departure of a great member of =
a
>> community typically comes off as worthy of grievance, but this community
>> has seen giants go.
>>
>
> You mean tinkerers?
>

See, this is the attitude I despise. Language is communal. You have no
right to decide who stays, and you have no moral grounds to pick on those
who decided to get a little creative.


>
>
>> Communities aren't the sort of places that come and go; you come and
>> stay. Communities are something people contribute to through willpower a=
nd
>> effort and their precious man-hours (and woman-hours too), but the only
>> experience I've seen radiate from those who've tried and failed to
>> incorporate themselves in the Lojbanic 'community' is one that's based o=
n
>> full-on unreciprocation. In a well-functioning community, people leave w=
hen
>> they think they've done their dues; in a pathological community like thi=
s
>> one, people leave because there's so much work to do that they're barred
>> from doing.
>>
>>
>>> I can see one important exception to it: mistypes in English text. I
>>> haven't witnessed any antagonism in fixing them.
>>>
>>
>> Sure, spend effort on what matters least. Just to keep the *air* of
>> business.
>>
>
> The business is done when certain goals are complete. This is not the goa=
l
> of the language of course but the documentation.
>

So what are you waiting for? If work is to be done, then may it be done. 35
years ought to have been enough.


>
>
>>
>>> As for fixing internal contradictions or adding new parts of the
>>> language as being official (sublanguages, dictionary, translations) tha=
t in
>>> fact leads only to the feeling of "I will never make this". If Lojban w=
ere
>>> some programming framework supported by some la mikro softo company we
>>> could ignore that and say: learn this ever-changing thing or leave it.
>>>
>>
>> So you've jumped on the programming language train=E2=80=A6 oh boy do I =
have a
>> lot to say in this matter.
>>
>> Programming languages do improve.
>>
>
> Usually in releases. When backward incompatible then it's clearly asserte=
d
> so. Lojban community hasn't been aiming at such procedures.
>

The comfort of having a separate major release is that you can go fix the
mistakes of the past. The Lojbanic leadership, which you're the perfect
representation of, does not aim to fix those mistakes. So it doesn't need
any procedures or any releases.


>
>
>> Java =E2=80=94 a language that's close to relic status =E2=80=94 has rec=
ently seen
>> additions like lambdas, closures, anonymous classes=E2=80=A6
>>
>
> additions
>

They're still changes.


>
>
>> Every programming language which does not wish to be yanked off the
>> mainstream train of thought tries its best to include the essential part=
s
>> of what people want or need or can find in other places. We don't need t=
o
>> force people to use Functional Programming concepts, but we might as wel=
l
>> leave those parts in so the ones who want it can have it and be happy.
>>
>> Have you ever heard about Elm? It, too, is governed by a man who believe=
s
>> he can exercise absolute power. He, too, says things like =E2=80=98if yo=
u don't do
>> X the Y way, then why are you using our product?=E2=80=99. All in the na=
me of
>> =E2=80=98being opinionated=E2=80=99. But we can be opinionated and permi=
ssive; we can
>> foster diversity while maintaining a strong baseline; we can be descript=
ive
>> without going all out. It can all be done, and the way strong Open Sourc=
e
>> projects are led can tell us a lot about what we're doing wrong. I predi=
ct
>> that Elm is going to get forked away from very soon; Lojban, with its
>> despotic attitude and little room for variation, is going to be moved aw=
ay
>> from. It's happening, and once it's reached full impetus, you won't be a=
ble
>> to stop it.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> However, any attempts to introduce changes to the language which
>>>> simplify it and remedy all the overengineering are always turned down =
by
>>>> the =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This =
causes the language to drift away
>>>> from what people actually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surely =E2=80=94 an=
d I really am sure
>>>> that this will turn against you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What I think is of little importance too.
>>>
>>
>> You say that, but you're very strong in asserting your opinions. If you
>> think you should bow to the Founding Fathers of the language and to the
>> demigods which preside in the committee (whatever its form of presentati=
on
>> is), then you're doing this in vain. Language is to free thought, not
>> enslave it.
>>
>
> Those demigods already paralyzed my activity.
>

So why do you put up with them? As I said, they're not out there to
patronize you. Make your own stuff, put it on a different web page. In
fact, this is something you do already.


>
>
>>
>>
>>> I may speak xorlo or another crazy dialect. Thats my choice. New
>>> learners have none. They must first reach fluency.
>>>
>>
>> I don't have a problem with treating CLL Lojban as =E2=80=98baseline=E2=
=80=99 Lojban. In
>> fact, I wrote a little essay on the matter around two years ago [1], and
>> although it's hard for me to gauge the reactions, I can tell you that
>> calling the =E2=80=98official dialect=E2=80=99 the =E2=80=98base(line) d=
ialect=E2=80=99 doesn't do said
>> dialect any harm =E2=80=94 quite the opposite: it empowers people who wa=
nt to
>> experiment to experiment, and gives this base dialect an incentive to
>> develop =E2=80=94 slowly and rationally.
>>
>
> I have no problem with that. But I dohave a problem when newcomers are
> being said "the CLL is obsolete". Who are you to say that? What do you
> present in exchange? Nothing as clifford just said.
>

And who are you say that the CLL is complete and final? Clearly it isn't if
every great Lojbanist I know of tries to get around its limitations.

I don't have anything to present in exchange because there hasn't been room
for those who want to offer that. If equal room had been made for those who
want to stick with what =E2=80=98works=E2=80=99 and those who want to exper=
iment, we
would've got along. But there is favouritism, which kills healthy
competition.


>
>>
>>> If existing fluent speakers don't stop tinkering seriously soon there
>>> will be fewer and fewer new learners coming (some assert this is alread=
y
>>> happening).
>>>
>>
>> See above. And the =E2=80=98tinkerers=E2=80=99 (as you've taken to calli=
ng them) aren't
>> at fault; you're just getting a taste of your own medicine.
>>
>>
>>> Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon The Glasgow
>>>> Conversation of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a certain =
word
>>>> that the other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversation de=
volves into a
>>>> mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. (I don=
=E2=80=99t suspect that they
>>>> were totally serious with it, but that=E2=80=99s how it went in the en=
d.) This is a
>>>> pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know w=
hat cmavo was the
>>>> offender here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that=
 a cmavo that=E2=80=99s used
>>>> all the time nowadays had people against it when it was being first
>>>> introduced?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That was before Lojban got into "release" state. But even from the CLL
>>> 1.0 standpoint addition of some "su'oi" cmavo is okay, the CLL allows f=
or
>>> that. I would mildly argue that such additions make learning harder. I
>>> wouldn't recommend adding such new words into tutorials.
>>>
>>
>> You know what makes learning harder? Tons upon tons of cmavo which nobod=
y
>> really uses and which could be phrased in simpler terms. Irregularities =
in
>> gismu frames.
>>
>
> No one is supposed to learn all the words of English or all the keywords
> of Java.
>

Yes, but when they're removed, you hear bickering. Lojban could've done
with a minimal core. But it decided to go all out, which has led us to the
ultimate feature creep.

As for minimal cores, I point to Toaq. It has 15=C3=97 less grammar; yet, i=
t
manages to express what Lojban can, and more. I don't mean to make a
convert out of you; however, if you have the time, do yourself a little
comparative analysis. You might learn that, with the intermediate step that
is G=C5=ABa sp=C3=AC, Toaq has managed to undo Lojban's mistakes. Perhaps t=
he latter
could learn some from the former=E2=80=A6 if only it weren't stopped from d=
oing it
by fiat.


>
>
>> Many, many internal distinctions like PU vs. VI vs. ZI vs. ZEhA vs. FAhA
>> vs. BAI. And if your point is that the CLL is a definitive source of
>> knowledge about what Lojban 1.0 the forever version should look like, th=
en
>> what about xorlo? This starts to feel like I'm trying to persuade a
>> biblical absolutism into rejecting the absoluteness of the Bible. And if
>> that's the case, the best approach is to walk away and leave them be; ma=
ny
>> people have done that so far. It's a telling sign.
>>
>
> As I said it's a nice sign. If you learned Lojban and want something else
> create something else. That's fine.
>

But not even you or I have the right to decide what's Lojban and what
isn't. Reminder: {lojbo} means =E2=80=98Lojbanic/Loglandic=E2=80=99. And th=
e dialects
aren't really =E2=80=98something else=E2=80=99 =E2=80=94 they're built on t=
he same core. I respect
the work that's been put into the core, but I don't respect the horrendous
bureaucratic edifice that's been erected thereupon.


>
>
>>
>>> However, e.g. every 5 years some official organization could say " here
>>> is the new version of the language, instead of print "hello" you should=
 now
>>> say print("hello") ". This would obviously make the community lose  tho=
se
>>> who bought the previous edition of the Book but at the same time give s=
ome
>>> sense of bettering over time. But given that no such committee is going=
 to
>>> appear anytime soon (lack of technical and organisational skills) this =
is
>>> just my fantasy that can be safely ignored. Better to stick to the only
>>> edition of the language.
>>>
>>
>> Python 3 was released in 2008, and the official deprecation date for
>> Python 2 was announced to be 2020. Do you really think that 12 years isn=
't
>> enough to hop over?
>>
>
> If there had been developers in Lojbanistan... There were none except for
> rlpowell who released the CLL 1.1
>

Which means that it shouldn't be a person who writes a CLL 2 =E2=80=94 it s=
hould be
people. If the LLG organized an effort to improve Lojban by writing a v2 of
the CLL, it would've gone perfectly well, for many could have a say, and
through civilized debate, a new core could be settled upon. It's not that
there aren't discussions =E2=80=94 it's that they're =E2=80=98out of the sc=
ope of the
enterprise=E2=80=99. (I do call bullshit on that.)


>
>
>> You're making a moot point: in Python 3, `print` is made into a regular
>> function; previously, it was a keyword. This reduces complexity, which i=
s
>> good =E2=80=94 it regularizes the treatment of `print` (what's so specia=
l about it?
>> why can't my procedure be made into a keyword?). The Python community ha=
s
>> encouraged switching over to v3 for a long time, yielding such tools as
>> 2to3.
>>
>> All this shows that change can be allowed, even if you prefer to keep it
>> slow. Today's language leaders' standpoint is not to attempt any change,
>> even as it wheezes past them.
>>
>>
>>> Pretend English is our language of interest. Every time somebody says
>>>> =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=98there ar=
e reasons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English
>>>> speaker you MUST lash out at them and tell them they belong to the dee=
pest
>>>> strata of hell. In other words, if you have opinions about what the
>>>> language should be like, you MUST make it clear that those are the cor=
rect
>>>> ones. Good luck making friends with this sort of attitude.
>>>>
>>>
>>> English is not prescriptive.
>>>
>>
>> Languages themselves can't be descriptive or prescriptive; people and
>> organizations and dictionaries are. For example, Polish is overseen by t=
he
>> RJP (the Polish Language Council), Finnish =E2=80=94 by KOTUS (Institute=
 for the
>> Languages of Finland), and so on. But they're not to serve themselves, b=
ut
>> the people which actually use the languages. If a change becomes
>> mainstream, the RJP will vote itself over to its side.
>>
>> It's important to remember that institutions like the LLG are not allowe=
d
>> to patronize us or to tell us that =E2=80=98this is how we do things bec=
ause it's
>> how we do them=E2=80=99.
>>
>
> True.
>

I'm glad you agree.


>
>
>> It's the people who have the right to choose =E2=80=94 many have chosen =
against
>> the absolutist bullshit. And that's why your community shrinks day by da=
y.
>>
>
>>
>>> All this is proof that over the entire history of language, people have
>>>> bitched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak langu=
age X
>>>> (where X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=
=99s no change
>>>> and no change is needed and one can get by without any change at all. =
The
>>>> only future I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is=
 that
>>>> you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release =
while others
>>>> move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most prominent=
 Lojbanists
>>>> of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of them still think o=
f themselves
>>>> as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude that=E2=80=99s so prominent=
 among the
>>>> members of the community ultimately makes them want to quit engaging i=
n it,
>>>> at least within the official venues like the IRC channel.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's fine. They can leave.
>>>
>>
>> You don't have the right to control who's around. Definitely not if
>> they're not misbehaving. So far, the reasons for leaving the Lojban
>> community have been weariness and helplessness. And you can't expect to
>> deserve to be treated with due respect if people are ostracized and
>> stigmatized.
>>
>
> I am myself ostracized by the LLG.
>

Then make the jump: find people who agree with you and establish a new
=E2=80=98headquarters=E2=80=99 for Lojban. If enough people agree with you,=
 you'll
outnumber the =E2=80=98baseline=E2=80=99 =E2=80=94 your fork will win. Howe=
ver, people tend to get
so fed up with this whole ordeal that they construct new languages instead
of trying to fix what's broken. Let time be the judge; I already do, and
I'm pretty sure that where I've placed my bets is where there is going to
be most happiness and satisfaction.


>
>
>>
>>
>>> Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and Lojban taught them somethin=
g
>>> so that they don't need either the language or the community anymore.
>>>
>>
>> They don't need the bullcrap that surrounds both. That's what it is. Man=
y
>> such people make these decisions against what their hearts tell them, bu=
t
>> sanity is more important than appeasement.
>>
>>
>>> And that's great since without tinkering more space will be provided fo=
r
>>> new learners to come.
>>>
>>
>> There is space; there's little incentive. The halls have been decked wit=
h
>> spikes.
>>
>>
>>> I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantly, =
y=E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s
>>>> utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and understand the =
needs of those who=E2=80=99ve
>>>> had the largest impact on the community will eventually make it run dr=
y.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You put it right. I don't care of those who already learnt Lojban.
>>>
>>
>> Dismissal is not the right path to take. As I said above, this *will*
>> turn against you.
>>
>
> My role is of little importance. Once again, I don't care of fluent
> speakers. They are free to go. Newcomers need help.
>

Newcomers need help for what? They will learn the CLL dialect if that's the
only dialect they're exposed to. But if you show people the full gamut of
choices, then everybody can find their fit.


>
> The people united will never be defeated.
>>
>> ~ ~ ~
>>
>> Perhaps it's time to do the right thing =E2=80=94 fork.
>>
>
> Please, create a new name for it. LoCCan3 of whatever
>

I needn't.


>
>
>> Somebody (maybe me myself, who knows) should do God's work and rethink
>> the grammar, rethink the vocab, rethink the approach. Because if you sti=
ck
>> to being stuck and you're stuck in being stuck, then the people watching
>> who have enough integrity to step back and distance themselves a little =
so
>> they're not dragged into the pit will leave you be. And that's what you
>> want =E2=80=94 to be left alone. But a committee doesn't exist with a co=
mmunity,
>> and since the community has pretty much dispersed, the committee has fai=
led
>> to serve it.
>>
>> I'm not going to drag this pointless rowing about for any longer; it's
>> Easter and I'm supposed to rejoice with my family. All I can say is: if =
you
>> are sure you know what you're doing and you're so adamant to keep at it,
>> then power to you. However, it's you who'll face the consequences, and
>> hurting others is one such consequence.
>>
>
> It's a volunteer work. I know what I'm doing.
>

Godspeed.


>
> P.S. Sorry for not answering to all the replies. Some looked to me like
> containing some harsh language.
>

I get the same impression from some of your points. However, I never miss
any.

Besides, who's to speak of harshness? Aren't you the guy who bullied
guskant until she couldn't stand it any further? I watch what happens in
Lojbanistan, and your words certainly aren't the warmest or most welcoming.

This being said, I know that you're going to do what you think is right.
And that I'm going to do what I think is right. No matter how harshly you
and I express our reservations, it's time which will uncover who's right.
And time does work against the LLG, and you're with the LLG, at least with
regards to ideology.

I do not wish to continue the discussion if you think your opinions don't
matter =E2=80=98in the long run=E2=80=99. After all, there are many importa=
nt things to do,
like fixing typos in the Holy Scripture.

Happy Easter.

=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 16:31=C2=A0Glek=
i Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.na=
me@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2=
020 17:07:28 UTC+3, uakci  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 13:02=C2=A0Gleki Arxokuna=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">Then why=
 are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it doesn=E2=80=
=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and, as I=E2=80=99ve=
 suggested before, move on.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I i=
nitially replied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not import=
ant.</div><div>So I&#39;m engaging in it just to say that the topic is of l=
ittle importance.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sounds =
oxymoronic to me.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>pyc=
yn started with the goal of Lojban (logic, monoparsing...) But the discussi=
on shifted the topic a lot since then.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>It has, and you&#39;re not helping it. :P<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">I see this as the mani=
festation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We are encouraged to create vocabulary=
, and vocabulary is a core part of the language, but no grammar proposals f=
or you! I don=E2=80=99t understand why you don=E2=80=99t have this visceral=
 reaction of disgust when people add =E2=80=98new and foreign=E2=80=99 zi=
=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}, {uinmo} =E2=80=94 yet, they =
too are something a learner will have to catch up with.</div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s stability. Lojban is declared that way.=
 New words are encouraged. See the CLL. New learners will know that if they=
 read the CLL. They will be ready for it.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>They will also be ready for the inevitable, which is that there =
are commonly used grammatical structures which the CLL wilfully omits.<br><=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>Whatever you/I/other fluent or non fluent speakers decid=
e to change in the CLL will only lead to the community dying out.</div></di=
v></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>*Your* community.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>And it&#39;s time I made a small correction. It&#39;s been a great mis=
take to call you a community. Communities stick together, but this make-pre=
tend community is entrenched in disputes. The departure of a great member o=
f a community typically comes off as worthy of grievance, but this communit=
y has seen giants go.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You=
 mean tinkerers?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>See, this is t=
he attitude I despise. Language is communal. You have no right to decide wh=
o stays, and you have no moral grounds to pick on those who decided to get =
a little creative.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv> Communities aren&#39;t the sort of places that come and go; you come an=
d stay. Communities are something people contribute to through willpower an=
d effort and their precious man-hours (and woman-hours too), but the only e=
xperience I&#39;ve seen radiate from those who&#39;ve tried and failed to i=
ncorporate themselves in the Lojbanic &#39;community&#39; is one that&#39;s=
 based on full-on unreciprocation. In a well-functioning community, people =
leave when they think they&#39;ve done their dues; in a pathological commun=
ity like this one, people leave because there&#39;s so much work to do that=
 they&#39;re barred from doing.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I can see one import=
ant exception to it: mistypes in English text. I haven&#39;t witnessed any =
antagonism in fixing them.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure=
, spend effort on what matters least. Just to keep the *air* of business.<b=
r></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The business is done w=
hen certain goals are complete. This is not the goal of the language of cou=
rse but the documentation.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So w=
hat are you waiting for? If work is to be done, then may it be done. 35 yea=
rs ought to have been enough.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>As for fixing internal contradictions or =
adding new parts of the language as being official (sublanguages, dictionar=
y, translations) that in fact leads only to the feeling of &quot;I will nev=
er make this&quot;. If Lojban were some programming framework supported by =
some la mikro softo company we could ignore that and say: learn this ever-c=
hanging thing or leave it.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So y=
ou&#39;ve jumped on the programming language train=E2=80=A6 oh boy do I hav=
e a lot to say in this matter.</div><div><br></div><div>Programming languag=
es do improve.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Usually =
in releases. When backward incompatible then it&#39;s clearly asserted so. =
Lojban community hasn&#39;t been aiming at such procedures.</div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>The comfort of having a separate major release=
 is that you can go fix the mistakes of the past. The Lojbanic leadership, =
which you&#39;re the perfect representation of, does not aim to fix those m=
istakes. So it doesn&#39;t need any procedures or any releases.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div> Java =E2=80=94 a language tha=
t&#39;s close to relic status =E2=80=94 has recently seen additions like la=
mbdas, closures, anonymous classes=E2=80=A6</div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>additions</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Th=
ey&#39;re still changes.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div> Every programming language which does not wish to be yanked off t=
he mainstream train of thought tries its best to include the essential part=
s of what people want or need or can find in other places. We don&#39;t nee=
d to force people to use Functional Programming concepts, but we might as w=
ell leave those parts in so the ones who want it can have it and be happy.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Have you ever heard about Elm? It, too, is governe=
d by a man who believes he can exercise absolute power. He, too, says thing=
s like =E2=80=98if you don&#39;t do X the Y way, then why are you using our=
 product?=E2=80=99. All in the name of =E2=80=98being opinionated=E2=80=99.=
 But we can be opinionated and permissive; we can foster diversity while ma=
intaining a strong baseline; we can be descriptive without going all out. I=
t can all be done, and the way strong Open Source projects are led can tell=
 us a lot about what we&#39;re doing wrong. I predict that Elm is going to =
get forked away from very soon; Lojban, with its despotic attitude and litt=
le room for variation, is going to be moved away from. It&#39;s happening, =
and once it&#39;s reached full impetus, you won&#39;t be able to stop it.<b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto"> However, any attempts to introduce chang=
es to the language which simplify it and remedy all the overengineering are=
 always turned down by the =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lob=
by=E2=80=99. This causes the language to drift away from what people actual=
ly use =E2=80=94 slowly but surely =E2=80=94 and I really am sure that this=
 will turn against you.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What I =
think is of little importance too.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>You say that, but you&#39;re very strong in asserting your opinions. If=
 you think you should bow to the Founding Fathers of the language and to th=
e demigods which preside in the committee (whatever its form of presentatio=
n is), then you&#39;re doing this in vain. Language is to free thought, not=
 enslave it.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Those de=
migods already paralyzed my activity.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>So why do you put up with them? As I said, they&#39;re not out there=
 to patronize you. Make your own stuff, put it on a different web page. In =
fact, this is something you do already.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I may speak xorlo or another craz=
y dialect. Thats my choice. New learners have none. They must first reach f=
luency.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t have a prob=
lem with treating CLL Lojban as =E2=80=98baseline=E2=80=99 Lojban. In fact,=
 I wrote a little essay on the matter around two years ago [1], and althoug=
h it&#39;s hard for me to gauge the reactions, I can tell you that calling =
the =E2=80=98official dialect=E2=80=99 the =E2=80=98base(line) dialect=E2=
=80=99 doesn&#39;t do said dialect any harm =E2=80=94 quite the opposite: i=
t empowers people who want to experiment to experiment, and gives this base=
 dialect an incentive to develop =E2=80=94 slowly and rationally.<br></div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have no problem with that. B=
ut I dohave a problem when newcomers are being said &quot;the CLL is obsole=
te&quot;. Who are you to say that? What do you present in exchange? Nothing=
 as clifford just said.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And who=
 are you say that the CLL is complete and final? Clearly it isn&#39;t if ev=
ery great Lojbanist I know of tries to get around its limitations.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>I don&#39;t have anything to present in exchange because t=
here hasn&#39;t been room for those who want to offer that. If equal room h=
ad been made for those who want to stick with what =E2=80=98works=E2=80=99 =
and those who want to experiment, we would&#39;ve got along. But there is f=
avouritism, which kills healthy competition.<br></div><div><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>If existing fluent speakers do=
n&#39;t stop tinkering seriously soon there will be fewer and fewer new lea=
rners coming (some assert this is already happening).</div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>See above. And the =E2=80=98tinkerers=E2=80=99 (as y=
ou&#39;ve taken to calling them) aren&#39;t at fault; you&#39;re just getti=
ng a taste of your own medicine.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">Here, let me try and make =
a point. Ever come upon The Glasgow Conversation of 1995? One of the conver=
sants happens to use a certain word that the other isn=E2=80=99t familiar w=
ith, and so the conversation devolves into a mini-argument about those =E2=
=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. (I don=E2=80=99t suspect that they were to=
tally serious with it, but that=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.) This is =
a pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know what=
 cmavo was the offender here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you im=
agine that a cmavo that=E2=80=99s used all the time nowadays had people aga=
inst it when it was being first introduced?</div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>That was before Lojban got into &quot;release&quot; state. But=
 even from the CLL 1.0 standpoint addition of some &quot;su&#39;oi&quot; cm=
avo is okay, the CLL allows for that. I would mildly argue that such additi=
ons make learning harder. I wouldn&#39;t recommend adding such new words in=
to tutorials.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You know what mak=
es learning harder? Tons upon tons of cmavo which nobody really uses and wh=
ich could be phrased in simpler terms. Irregularities in gismu frames.</div=
></div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>No one is supposed to learn=
 all the words of English or all the keywords of Java.</div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>Yes, but when they&#39;re removed, you hear bickeri=
ng. Lojban could&#39;ve done with a minimal core. But it decided to go all =
out, which has led us to the ultimate feature creep.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>As for minimal cores, I point to Toaq. It has 15=C3=97 less grammar; yet=
, it manages to express what Lojban can, and more. I don&#39;t mean to make=
 a convert out of you; however, if you have the time, do yourself a little =
comparative analysis. You might learn that, with the intermediate step that=
 is G=C5=ABa sp=C3=AC, Toaq has managed to undo Lojban&#39;s mistakes. Perh=
aps the latter could learn some from the former=E2=80=A6 if only it weren&#=
39;t stopped from doing it by fiat.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div> Many, many internal distinctions like PU vs. VI vs. =
ZI vs. ZEhA vs. FAhA vs. BAI. And if your point is that the CLL is a defini=
tive source of knowledge about what Lojban 1.0 the forever version should l=
ook like, then what about xorlo? This starts to feel like I&#39;m trying to=
 persuade a biblical absolutism into rejecting the absoluteness of the Bibl=
e. And if that&#39;s the case, the best approach is to walk away and leave =
them be; many people have done that so far. It&#39;s a telling sign.<br></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As I said it&#39;s a nice s=
ign. If you learned Lojban and want something else create something else. T=
hat&#39;s fine.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But not even yo=
u or I have the right to decide what&#39;s Lojban and what isn&#39;t. Remin=
der: {lojbo} means =E2=80=98Lojbanic/Loglandic=E2=80=99. And the dialects a=
ren&#39;t really =E2=80=98something else=E2=80=99 =E2=80=94 they&#39;re bui=
lt on the same core. I respect the work that&#39;s been put into the core, =
but I don&#39;t respect the horrendous bureaucratic edifice that&#39;s been=
 erected thereupon.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>However, e.g. every 5 years some officia=
l organization could say &quot; here is the new version of the language, in=
stead of print &quot;hello&quot; you should now say print(&quot;hello&quot;=
) &quot;. This would obviously make the community lose=C2=A0 those who boug=
ht the previous edition of the Book but at the same time give some sense of=
 bettering over time. But given that no such committee is going to appear a=
nytime soon (lack of technical and organisational skills) this is just my f=
antasy that can be safely ignored. Better to stick to the only edition of t=
he language.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Python 3 was relea=
sed in 2008, and the official deprecation date for Python 2 was announced t=
o be 2020. Do you really think that 12 years isn&#39;t enough to hop over?<=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If there had been develop=
ers in Lojbanistan... There were none except for rlpowell who released the =
CLL 1.1=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Which means that =
it shouldn&#39;t be a person who writes a CLL 2 =E2=80=94 it should be peop=
le. If the LLG organized an effort to improve Lojban by writing a v2 of the=
 CLL, it would&#39;ve gone perfectly well, for many could have a say, and t=
hrough civilized debate, a new core could be settled upon. It&#39;s not tha=
t there aren&#39;t discussions =E2=80=94 it&#39;s that they&#39;re =E2=80=
=98out of the scope of the enterprise=E2=80=99. (I do call bullshit on that=
.)<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>=
You&#39;re making a moot point: in Python 3, `print` is made into a regular=
 function; previously, it was a keyword. This reduces complexity, which is =
good =E2=80=94 it regularizes the treatment of `print` (what&#39;s so speci=
al about it? why can&#39;t my procedure be made into a keyword?). The Pytho=
n community has encouraged switching over to v3 for a long time, yielding s=
uch tools as 2to3.</div><div><br></div><div>All this shows that change can =
be allowed, even if you prefer to keep it slow. Today&#39;s language leader=
s&#39; standpoint is not to attempt any change, even as it wheezes past the=
m.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
><div dir=3D"auto">Pretend English is our language of interest. Every time =
somebody says =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=
=98there are reasons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English speaker you MUST lash ou=
t at them and tell them they belong to the deepest strata of hell. In other=
 words, if you have opinions about what the language should be like, you MU=
ST make it clear that those are the correct ones. Good luck making friends =
with this sort of attitude.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Eng=
lish is not prescriptive.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Langu=
ages themselves can&#39;t be descriptive or prescriptive; people and organi=
zations and dictionaries are. For example, Polish is overseen by the RJP (t=
he Polish Language Council), Finnish =E2=80=94 by KOTUS (Institute for the =
Languages of Finland), and so on. But they&#39;re not to serve themselves, =
but the people which actually use the languages. If a change becomes mainst=
ream, the RJP will vote itself over to its side.</div><div><br></div><div>I=
t&#39;s important to remember that institutions like the LLG are not allowe=
d to patronize us or to tell us that =E2=80=98this is how we do things beca=
use it&#39;s how we do them=E2=80=99.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>True.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m glad=
 you agree.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div> It&=
#39;s the people who have the right to choose =E2=80=94 many have chosen ag=
ainst the absolutist bullshit. And that&#39;s why your community shrinks da=
y by day.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=
=3D"auto">All this is proof that over the entire history of language, peopl=
e have bitched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak lan=
guage X (where X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=
=80=99s no change and no change is needed and one can get by without any ch=
ange at all. The only future I foresee for you and the people who share you=
r mindset is that you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 F=
inal Release while others move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so ha=
ve the most prominent Lojbanists of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sur=
e most of them still think of themselves as Lojbanists; however, the toxic =
attitude that=E2=80=99s so prominent among the members of the community ult=
imately makes them want to quit engaging in it, at least within the officia=
l venues like the IRC channel.=C2=A0<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>That&#39;s fine. They can leave.</div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>You don&#39;t have the right to control who&#39;s around. Defin=
itely not if they&#39;re not misbehaving. So far, the reasons for leaving t=
he Lojban community have been weariness and helplessness. And you can&#39;t=
 expect to deserve to be treated with due respect if people are ostracized =
and stigmatized.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I am=
 myself ostracized by the LLG.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Then make the jump: find people who agree with you and establish a new =E2=
=80=98headquarters=E2=80=99 for Lojban. If enough people agree with you, yo=
u&#39;ll outnumber the =E2=80=98baseline=E2=80=99 =E2=80=94 your fork will =
win. However, people tend to get so fed up with this whole ordeal that they=
 construct new languages instead of trying to fix what&#39;s broken. Let ti=
me be the judge; I already do, and I&#39;m pretty sure that where I&#39;ve =
placed my bets is where there is going to be most happiness and satisfactio=
n.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div>Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and Lojban taught them som=
ething so that they don&#39;t need either the language or the community any=
more.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>They don&#39;t need the b=
ullcrap that surrounds both. That&#39;s what it is. Many such people make t=
hese decisions against what their hearts tell them, but sanity is more impo=
rtant than appeasement.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>And that&#39;s great since w=
ithout tinkering more space will be provided for new learners to come.</div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There is space; there&#39;s little =
incentive. The halls have been decked with spikes.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">I don=E2=
=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantly, y=E2=80=99al=
l=E2=80=99s utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and understa=
nd the needs of those who=E2=80=99ve had the largest impact on the communit=
y will eventually make it run dry.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>You put it right. I don&#39;t care of those who already learnt Lojban.<=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Dismissal is not the right path=
 to take. As I said above, this *will* turn against you.</div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>My role is of little importance. Once again=
, I don&#39;t care of fluent speakers. They are free to go. Newcomers need =
help.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Newcomers need help for w=
hat? They will learn the CLL dialect if that&#39;s the only dialect they=
9;re exposed to. But if you show people the full gamut of choices, then eve=
rybody can find their fit.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div> The people united will never be defeated.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>~ ~ ~<br></div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps it&#39;s time to do the right =
thing =E2=80=94 fork.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ple=
ase, create a new name for it. LoCCan3 of whatever</div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>I needn&#39;t.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div> Somebody (maybe me myself, who knows) should do God&#39=
;s work and rethink the grammar, rethink the vocab, rethink the approach. B=
ecause if you stick to being stuck and you&#39;re stuck in being stuck, the=
n the people watching who have enough integrity to step back and distance t=
hemselves a little so they&#39;re not dragged into the pit will leave you b=
e. And that&#39;s what you want =E2=80=94 to be left alone. But a committee=
 doesn&#39;t exist with a community, and since the community has pretty muc=
h dispersed, the committee has failed to serve it.</div><div><br></div><div=
>I&#39;m not going to drag this pointless rowing about for any longer; it&#=
39;s Easter and I&#39;m supposed to rejoice with my family. All I can say i=
s: if you are sure you know what you&#39;re doing and you&#39;re so adamant=
 to keep at it, then power to you. However, it&#39;s you who&#39;ll face th=
e consequences, and hurting others is one such consequence.</div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s a volunteer work. I know what I=
&#39;m doing.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Godspeed.<br></di=
v><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>P.S. Sorry for not answering to all the repl=
ies. Some looked to me like containing some harsh language.</div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>I get the same impression from some of your po=
ints. However, I never miss any.</div><div><br></div><div>Besides, who&#39;=
s to speak of harshness? Aren&#39;t you the guy who bullied guskant until s=
he couldn&#39;t stand it any further? I watch what happens in Lojbanistan, =
and your words certainly aren&#39;t the warmest or most welcoming.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>This being said, I know that you&#39;re going to do what y=
ou think is right. And that I&#39;m going to do what I think is right. No m=
atter how harshly you and I express our reservations, it&#39;s time which w=
ill uncover who&#39;s right. And time does work against the LLG, and you=
9;re with the LLG, at least with regards to ideology.</div><div><br></div><=
div>I do not wish to continue the discussion if you think your opinions don=
&#39;t matter =E2=80=98in the long run=E2=80=99. After all, there are many =
important things to do, like fixing typos in the Holy Scripture.<br></div><=
div><br></div><div>Happy Easter.</div><div><br></div><div>=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=
=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.<br></div></div></div>

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