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Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 16:13:24 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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 Well,, pokey toenails does have a clear project (simplicity, specified pho=
nologically and grammatically} and some clear goals (well, more or less). A=
nd it has a fairly large community of willing combatants and interlocutors.=
 =C2=A0Hard to find for other interesting languages (John Q doesn=E2=80=99t=
 generally answer questions about Ithkuil, for example, and no one else eve=
n pretends). =C2=A0=C2=A0
    On Sunday, April 12, 2020, 09:27:05 AM CDT, uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com=
> wrote: =20
=20
 Hi, OP!

niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 15:55=C2=A0'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googl=
egroups.com> napisa=C5=82(a):

 Oh, my!=C2=A0 I merely meant to drop a friendly reminder that Lojban could=
 not achieve its goal as presently constituted.=C2=A0=20

I think it's time somebody did that.
=C2=A0
I learn (I=E2=80=99ve been away a while) Lojbanists (of some sort or other =
or maybe all) no longer car about its primary goal, monoparsing, but are co=
ncerned to make a viable language out of the scraps. =C2=A0

You might think this is having your priorities upside down, but you can't a=
dvertise a language that satisfies appealing property X (in this case, X =
=3D monoparsing) while sacrificing its usability.
=C2=A0
My immediate question is, =E2=80=9CGiven that Lojban no longer strives for =
monparsing, what reason is there to continue working on it or learning it?=
=E2=80=9D =C2=A0

As I've stated in my previous replies in this thread, I think there's none.=
 There are new loglangs out there which deserve more attention and whose se=
tup is way healthier than the current one; not to sound my own horn, but To=
aq is one example of this. (The author is currently working on a full lingu=
istic grammar of the language; I'm quite excited for what's to come.) You'r=
e welcome to join :)
=C2=A0
In the past, all the grotesqueries of Lojban morphology and grammar could b=
e justified as necessary for the Great Goal.=C2=A0 But now that that Goal i=
s gone, they merely constitute needless complexities that make learning the=
 language even harder.=C2=A0 Stripping away the 47 kinds of commas (and God=
 forbid you should use the wrong one, even though it no longer makes a cruc=
ial difference) (=E2=80=9947=E2=80=99 is merely a ridiculously large number=
, not meant to be accurate) would make the language easier to learn and do =
that systematically for all the word classes would eventually get to someth=
ing manageable.=20

Perhaps =E2=80=98making a viable language out of the scraps=E2=80=99 is a v=
ain task to embark on after all =E2=80=94 why not start from the ground up?
=C2=A0
But there would still be no reason to learn it, because it doesn=E2=80=99t =
do anything that English (etc.) doesn=E2=80=99t do, nor do it in a novel an=
d revealing way.

I have to disagree somewhat. As much as I bash Lojban for how it's organize=
d and how much the leadership and the ones of kin do to fend off criticism,=
 learning Lojban was a groundbreaking event of my life =E2=80=94 it changed=
 the way I thought of phenomena. (Perhaps now is the time for something els=
e than a revolutionary language =E2=80=94 perhaps something like Hegel's Ph=
enomenology of Spirit=E2=80=A6). However, languages have goals, and if the =
only goal a language has is to be a {mencti}-able curiosity, then I agree.
=C2=A0=20

If I counted right, there are at least nine version of Lojban floating arou=
nd with adherents.=C2=A0 The winnowing process is presumably already at wor=
k and some of these are close to languages of one grumpy guy in a garret.=
=C2=A0 Some have people in LLG offices (big whoop!).=C2=A0 Some have decent=
 sized (say 12) groups here and there. What can any of these offer to newbi=
es or possible converts to get them to join?=C2=A0 Nothing, really.=C2=A0 S=
o, they will all fade away (the LLG section running on on inertia).

I've proposed calling LLG Lojban =E2=80=98Base Lojban=E2=80=99 (cf. last em=
ail). However, power corrupts, which is what ultimately leads to what we ha=
ve now: the =E2=80=98community=E2=80=99 running on dirges of internet fame =
(remember that xkcd strip from 157 years ago?) and some misconceptions that=
 you'd acquire as you read Lojban's (unfulfilled) mission statement. Those =
who want to unite will unite =E2=80=94 I do speak Lojban with a couple of f=
riends. Even though it might not be as much fun as spending time in a large=
-ish community and doing good deeds there (like translations =E2=80=94 some=
thing we all like), it's still better than the status quo where people who =
dare disagree with the one and only dialect are to screw off.
=C2=A0
I recommend that all of you take a weekend off and learn toki pona (maybe s=
tart Friday night and leave a little time over breakfast on Monday). You wi=
ll have a new language with a purpose (you can choose from half a dozen at =
least).=C2=A0 And you don=E2=80=99t lose the rights to constantly snipe at =
tiny infractions by your colinguals and to get into abstruse debate about d=
etails of grammar.=C2=A0 After all, I am in the middle of it. =C2=A0

I second that proposal (though any other language will do you good =E2=80=
=94 any X such that X is not Lojban, that is).
=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.


--=20
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.com.
 =20

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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp63eaa828yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
3px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Well,, pokey toenails does h=
ave a clear project (simplicity, specified phonologically and grammatically=
} and some clear goals (well, more or less). And it has a fairly large comm=
unity of willing combatants and interlocutors. &nbsp;Hard to find for other=
 interesting languages (John Q doesn=E2=80=99t generally answer questions a=
bout Ithkuil, for example, and no one else even pretends). &nbsp;&nbsp;</di=
v><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_7377539004" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Sunday, April 12, 2020, 09:27:05 AM CDT, uakci &lt;c=
iuak.prog@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv1501689847"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>H=
i, OP!<br clear=3D"none"></div><br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yiv15016898=
47gmail_quote"><div class=3D"yiv1501689847gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">niedz., 1=
2 kwi 2020 o 15:55&nbsp;'John E Clifford' via lojban &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow=
" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt; =
napisa=C5=82(a):<br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1501689847=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue=
, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr">Oh, my!&nbsp; I merely meant to drop a friendly re=
minder that Lojban could not achieve its goal as presently constituted.&nbs=
p; </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I thin=
k it's time somebody did that.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"yiv1501689847gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"><div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13p=
x;"><div dir=3D"ltr">I learn (I=E2=80=99ve been away a while) Lojbanists (o=
f some sort or other or maybe all) no longer car about its primary goal, mo=
noparsing, but are concerned to make a viable language out of the scraps. &=
nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>You =
might think this is having your priorities upside down, but you can't adver=
tise a language that satisfies appealing property X (in this case, X =3D mo=
noparsing) while sacrificing its usability.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&n=
bsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1501689847gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"><=
div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;=
font-size:13px;"><div dir=3D"ltr">My immediate question is, =E2=80=9CGiven =
that Lojban no longer strives for monparsing, what reason is there to conti=
nue working on it or learning it?=E2=80=9D &nbsp;</div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>As I've stated in my previous repli=
es in this thread, I think there's none. There are new loglangs out there w=
hich deserve more attention and whose setup is way healthier than the curre=
nt one; not to sound my own horn, but Toaq is one example of this. (The aut=
hor is currently working on a full linguistic grammar of the language; I'm =
quite excited for what's to come.) You're welcome to join :)<br clear=3D"no=
ne"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1501689847gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, A=
rial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div dir=3D"ltr">In the past, all the gro=
tesqueries of Lojban morphology and grammar could be justified as necessary=
 for the Great Goal.&nbsp; But now that that Goal is gone, they merely cons=
titute needless complexities that make learning the language even harder.&n=
bsp; Stripping away the 47 kinds of commas (and God forbid you should use t=
he wrong one, even though it no longer makes a crucial difference) (=E2=80=
=9947=E2=80=99 is merely a ridiculously large number, not meant to be accur=
ate) would make the language easier to learn and do that systematically for=
 all the word classes would eventually get to something manageable. </div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Perhaps =E2=80=
=98making a viable language out of the scraps=E2=80=99 is a vain task to em=
bark on after all =E2=80=94 why not start from the ground up?<br clear=3D"n=
one"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1501689847gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div dir=3D"ltr">But there would still b=
e no reason to learn it, because it doesn=E2=80=99t do anything that Englis=
h (etc.) doesn=E2=80=99t do, nor do it in a novel and revealing way.</div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I have to disagr=
ee somewhat. As much as I bash Lojban for how it's organized and how much t=
he leadership and the ones of kin do to fend off criticism, learning Lojban=
 was a groundbreaking event of my life =E2=80=94 it changed the way I thoug=
ht of phenomena. (Perhaps now is the time for something else than a revolut=
ionary language =E2=80=94 perhaps something like Hegel's Phenomenology of S=
pirit=E2=80=A6). However, languages have goals, and if the only goal a lang=
uage has is to be a {mencti}-able curiosity, then I agree.<br clear=3D"none=
"></div><div>&nbsp; <br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote class=3D"yiv150168=
9847gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div dir=3D"ltr">If I c=
ounted right, there are at least nine version of Lojban floating around wit=
h adherents.&nbsp; The winnowing process is presumably already at work and =
some of these are close to languages of one grumpy guy in a garret.&nbsp; S=
ome have people in LLG offices (big whoop!).&nbsp; Some have decent sized (=
say 12) groups here and there. What can any of these offer to newbies or po=
ssible converts to get them to join?&nbsp; Nothing, really.&nbsp; So, they =
will all fade away (the LLG section running on on inertia).</div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I've proposed calling LLG=
 Lojban =E2=80=98Base Lojban=E2=80=99 (cf. last email). However, power corr=
upts, which is what ultimately leads to what we have now: the =E2=80=98comm=
unity=E2=80=99 running on dirges of internet fame (remember that xkcd strip=
 from 157 years ago?) and some misconceptions that you'd acquire as you rea=
d Lojban's (unfulfilled) mission statement. Those who want to unite will un=
ite =E2=80=94 I do speak Lojban with a couple of friends. Even though it mi=
ght not be as much fun as spending time in a large-ish community and doing =
good deeds there (like translations =E2=80=94 something we all like), it's =
still better than the status quo where people who dare disagree with the on=
e and only dialect are to screw off.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"yiv1501689847gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"><div><di=
v style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-si=
ze:13px;"><div dir=3D"ltr">I recommend that all of you take a weekend off a=
nd learn toki pona (maybe start Friday night and leave a little time over b=
reakfast on Monday). You will have a new language with a purpose (you can c=
hoose from half a dozen at least).&nbsp; And you don=E2=80=99t lose the rig=
hts to constantly snipe at tiny infractions by your colinguals and to get i=
nto abstruse debate about details of grammar.&nbsp; After all, I am in the =
middle of it. &nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none">=
</div><div>I second that proposal (though any other language will do you go=
od =E2=80=94 any X such that X is not Lojban, that is).</div><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div>=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.<d=
iv class=3D"yiv1501689847yqt4586435346" id=3D"yiv1501689847yqtfd55114"><br =
clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"yiv1501689847yqt458643=
5346" id=3D"yiv1501689847yqtfd60889">

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