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From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 00:37:40 +0100
Message-ID: <CACf3dPmRa=F2QvTjiGtp6mjXAVk0pM4+D349R6JehoK3RevP_g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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Thanks for those links. In reading this interesting thread, I find myself
perplexed as to what it is that the Progressive Lojbanists want, that leads
to this ire, bitterness or disillusionment. I understand the Conservative
Lojbanist position, and also Radical positions, such as remedying all the
remediable defects of Lojban, which then yields Toaq. But what is the
rationale for the intermediate position? I understand that there was a
flowering of dialects, but while all surely improved Base Lojban, surely
none improved Lojban to the point of adequacy. And if, for some reason that
I don't understand, the Conservative control of LLG was a problem, why did
the Progressives not join LLG and vote out the Conservative leadership?

My best guess as to the reason for ire, bitterness or disillusionment is
that prior to the development of Toaq and not-yet-created loglangological
conspectuses, the typical loglanger would discover Lojban, become deeply
immersed in it (even, in some extreme cases, reading the proceedings of the
Jboske and Lojban list archives many years after they took place!), then
notice more and more flaws, and then gradually come to realization of the
irreparability of Lojban, but only after investing thousands upon thousands
of hours of largely wasted effort, this wasted effort being the cause of
ire, bitterness or disillusionment. But this still doesn't explain why
ill-feelings would be directed at Lojbanic Conservatism, since the
irreparability of Lojban is due to the design of Lojban itself, not to
Conservatism.

Or maybe the apparent existence of irate, bitter or disillusioned
Progressives is just an illusion produced by this thread?

--And.

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 15:13, uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:

> stevo:
>
>> Where can I find out more about these other dialects of Lojban and the
>> supposed problems and their solutions?
>>
>> stevo
>>
>
> Sadly, the overall documentation is somewhat scattered. You might want to
> investigate certain cornerstone pages like the one for zantufa <
> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantufa>, a stellar project which has sadly
> ground to a halt due to its creator being thrown into Lojban dialect dram=
a*.
>
> =E2=80=98The Lojban I speak=E2=80=99 <
> https://gist.github.com/lynn/453a1ccc62aafbc24d2bfbd29bf5cabf> by Lynn
> (another Lojbanist who's gone inactive) is one other interesting piece. I=
t
> documents the =E2=80=98deviations=E2=80=99 pretty thoroughly, which shows=
 her integrity in
> using Lojban.
>
> =E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.
>
> * A cemented phrase.
>
> PS to gleki: I forgot to supply the footnote, so here it is:
> [1]
> https://www.reddit.com/r/lojban/comments/5m912s/official_lojban_lu_catni_=
gerna_liu_zou/
>
> --
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> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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-B1VykPYCuAr6Asq7P0OLXA%40mail.gmail.com
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Q-B1VykPYCuAr6Asq7P0OLXA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Df=
ooter>
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,=
serif;font-size:large">Thanks for those links. In reading this interesting =
thread, I find myself perplexed as to what it is that the Progressive Lojba=
nists want, that leads to this ire, bitterness or disillusionment. I unders=
tand the Conservative Lojbanist position, and also Radical positions, such =
as remedying all the remediable defects of Lojban, which then yields Toaq. =
But what is the rationale for the intermediate position? I understand that =
there was a flowering of dialects, but while all surely improved Base Lojba=
n, surely none improved Lojban to the point of adequacy. And if, for some r=
eason that I don&#39;t understand, the Conservative control of LLG was a pr=
oblem, why did the Progressives not join LLG and vote out the Conservative =
leadership?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,=
serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:georgia,serif;font-size:large">My best guess as to the reason for i=
re, bitterness or disillusionment is that prior to the development of Toaq =
and not-yet-created loglangological conspectuses, the typical loglanger=C2=
=A0would discover Lojban, become deeply immersed in it (even, in some extre=
me cases, reading the proceedings of the Jboske and Lojban list archives ma=
ny years after they took place!), then notice more and more flaws, and then=
 gradually come to realization of the irreparability of Lojban, but only af=
ter investing thousands upon thousands of hours of largely wasted effort, t=
his wasted effort being the cause of ire, bitterness or disillusionment. Bu=
t this still doesn&#39;t explain why ill-feelings would be directed at Lojb=
anic Conservatism, since the irreparability of Lojban is due to the design =
of Lojban itself, not to Conservatism.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:large">Or maybe =
the apparent existence of irate, bitter or disillusioned Progressives is ju=
st an illusion produced by this thread?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:large">--And.</=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 15:13, uakci &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ciuak.prog@gm=
ail.com">ciuak.prog@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">stevo:<div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;courier new&quot;,monospace">Where can I find o=
ut more about these other dialects of Lojban and the supposed problems and =
their solutions?=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:&quot;courier new&quo=
t;,monospace"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:&quot;courier new&quot;,m=
onospace">stevo</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sadly, the over=
all documentation is somewhat scattered. You might want to investigate cert=
ain cornerstone pages like the one for zantufa &lt;<a href=3D"https://mw.lo=
jban.org/papri/zantufa" target=3D"_blank">https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantu=
fa</a>&gt;, a stellar project which has sadly ground to a halt due to its c=
reator being thrown into Lojban dialect drama*.</div></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=E2=80=98The Lojban I speak=
=E2=80=99 &lt;<a href=3D"https://gist.github.com/lynn/453a1ccc62aafbc24d2bf=
bd29bf5cabf" target=3D"_blank">https://gist.github.com/lynn/453a1ccc62aafbc=
24d2bfbd29bf5cabf</a>&gt; by Lynn (another Lojbanist who&#39;s gone inactiv=
e) is one other interesting piece. It documents the =E2=80=98deviations=E2=
=80=99 pretty thoroughly, which shows her integrity in using Lojban.<br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=
=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.<br></div><div><br></div><div>* A cemented phras=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>PS to gleki: I forgot to supply the footnote, s=
o here it is:</div><div>[1] <a href=3D"https://www.reddit.com/r/lojban/comm=
ents/5m912s/official_lojban_lu_catni_gerna_liu_zou/" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://www.reddit.com/r/lojban/comments/5m912s/official_lojban_lu_catni_gerna_=
liu_zou/</a> </div></div></div>

<p></p>

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Q-B1VykPYCuAr6Asq7P0OLXA%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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