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From: "H. Task" <selguha@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 11:13:51 -0400
Message-ID: <CAEMeEWFjCQF_xO3_yvTkb5u+YtfRtXykRyU_kPy3KaeRPKjugA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: H. Task <selguha@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 16:31
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
To: <maikxlx@gmail.com>


Hello, Mike. I was wondering if you had links to the late Mr. May's
original morphology proposal from the '80s. The material on his Ceqli
website is pretty disorganized and patchy.

I have been working for a while on simplifying loglan morphology without
sacrificing phonological averageness. That is, I believe that the loglans
(including Ceqli) are all unnecessarily stilted in their morphological
design, resulting in languages that appear more alien, and put more
cumbersome limits on word shape, than they have to.

Thanks,
H.T.

On Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 11:01 Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 9:55 AM 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
> lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, my!  I merely meant to drop a friendly reminder that Lojban could no=
t
>> achieve its goal as presently constituted.  I learn (I=E2=80=99ve been a=
way a
>> while) Lojbanists (of some sort or other or maybe all) no longer car abo=
ut
>> its primary goal, monoparsing, but are concerned to make a viable langua=
ge
>> out of the scraps.
>>
>
> Do you have evidence that the Lojbanist community as a whole has abandone=
d
> the goal of "monoparsing" (which I take to mean self-segregating morpholo=
gy
> and unambiguous grammar)?  There may be a couple people who feel it's
> unimportant, but in my experience, if you leave out a {ku}, you *will* be
> corrected.  As far as I am aware, *all* of the experimental parsers and
> *all* of the major reform proposals, e.g. as Solpahi's connective reform,
> honor monoparsing (they simply rely on >1 lookahead).  I am not sure why
> you believe that Lojbanists no longer care about monoparsing.  The opposi=
te
> is true, as far as I can tell.
>
> As far as your words "[Lojban's] primary goal, monoparsing" -- that's to
> me like saying "a house's primary goal, having a stable foundation".  In =
my
> view, the primary goal of a logical language is to have a formal semantic=
s,
> and a formal grammar is a requirement for that, just as the primary goal =
of
> a house is to be lived in, and having a stable foundation is a requiremen=
t
> for that.
>
>
>>
>> My immediate question is, =E2=80=9CGiven that Lojban no longer strives f=
or
>> monparsing, what reason is there to continue working on it or learning i=
t?=E2=80=9D
>>  In the past, all the grotesqueries of Lojban morphology and grammar cou=
ld
>> be justified as necessary for the Great Goal.  But now that that Goal is
>> gone, they merely constitute needless complexities that make learning th=
e
>> language even harder.  Stripping away the 47 kinds of commas (and God
>> forbid you should use the wrong one, even though it no longer makes a
>> crucial difference) (=E2=80=9947=E2=80=99 is merely a ridiculously large=
 number, not meant
>> to be accurate) would make the language easier to learn and do that
>> systematically for all the word classes would eventually get to somethin=
g
>> manageable. But there would still be no reason to learn it, because it
>> doesn=E2=80=99t do anything that English (etc.) doesn=E2=80=99t do, nor =
do it in a novel
>> and revealing way.
>>
>
> Let's be honest.  Rex May showed in the 1980s that the unambiguous
> morphology could be made not only simpler but *extremely* simpler, and bo=
th
> the makers of Xorban and the grossly underrated Richard Morneau showed th=
at
> the unambiguous grammar could be made not only simpler but *extremely*
> simpler.  Lojban is based on a rather clumsy (though original and
> interesting and exciting in 1960) prototype clumsily complexified by
> decades of patches upon patches.  I guess people stick with it because it
> has something the other languages do not have (namely a history and a
> community), though that may eventually change.  Already Toaq has an activ=
e
> user community and I predict other languages will be coming online in the
> next few years.  But I also predict the Lojban community will continue to
> exist.
>
>
>
>> If I counted right, there are at least nine version of Lojban floating
>> around with adherents.  The winnowing process is presumably already at w=
ork
>> and some of these are close to languages of one grumpy guy in a garret.
>> Some have people in LLG offices (big whoop!).  Some have decent sized (s=
ay
>> 12) groups here and there. What can any of these offer to newbies or
>> possible converts to get them to join?  Nothing, really.  So, they will =
all
>> fade away (the LLG section running on on inertia).
>> I recommend that all of you take a weekend off and learn toki pona (mayb=
e
>> start Friday night and leave a little time over breakfast on Monday). Yo=
u
>> will have a new language with a purpose (you can choose from half a doze=
n
>> at least).  And you don=E2=80=99t lose the rights to constantly snipe at=
 tiny
>> infractions by your colinguals and to get into abstruse debate about
>> details of grammar.  After all, I am in the middle of it.
>>
>
> I will not be jumping on the Toki Pona parlor-game bandwagon any time
> soon.  Toki Pona is ridiculously overhyped and grossly overrated in my
> opinion, is full of its own problems, is a total joke and cop-out in term=
s
> of usability ("just don't have words!" -- wow, brilliant idea, Sonya; tha=
t
> solves everything), and certainly does not represent a satisfactory
> language for those of us seeking a better logical language.
>
> -Mike
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/CAOYwWb1u3HfzkLk%3DWK3OM%3D1qxa9=
kMMmJvzbm_cKH7h%2BpEAdyaA%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/CAOYwWb1u3HfzkLk%3DWK3OM%3D1qxa=
9kMMmJvzbm_cKH7h%2BpEAdyaA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=
=3Dfooter>
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <stron=
g class=3D"gmail_sendername" dir=3D"auto">H. Task</strong> <span dir=3D"aut=
o">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:selguha@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">selguha@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 16:31<br=
>Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails<br>To:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikx=
lx@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;<br></div><br><br><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">Hello, Mike. I was w=
ondering if you had links to the late Mr. May&#39;s original morphology pro=
posal from the &#39;80s. The material on his Ceqli website is pretty disorg=
anized and patchy.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I hav=
e been working for a while on simplifying loglan morphology without sacrifi=
cing phonological averageness. That is, I believe that the loglans (includi=
ng Ceqli) are all unnecessarily=C2=A0stilted in their morphological design,=
 resulting in languages that appear more alien, and put more cumbersome lim=
its on word shape, than they have to.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">Thanks,</div><div dir=3D"auto">H.T.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 11:01 Mike S. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">maikxlx@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 9:55 AM &#39;John E Clifford&#39; via lojb=
an &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" rel=3D"noreferrer norefer=
rer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size=
:13px"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr">Oh, my!=C2=A0 I merely meant to drop a friendly re=
minder that Lojban could not achieve its goal as presently constituted.=C2=
=A0 I learn (I=E2=80=99ve been away a while) Lojbanists (of some sort or ot=
her or maybe all) no longer car about its primary goal, monoparsing, but ar=
e concerned to make a viable language out of the scraps.</div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you have evidence that the Lojbanist com=
munity as a whole has abandoned the goal of &quot;monoparsing&quot; (which =
I take to mean self-segregating morphology and unambiguous grammar)?=C2=A0 =
There may be a couple people who feel it&#39;s unimportant, but in my exper=
ience, if you leave out a {ku}, you *will* be corrected.=C2=A0 As far as I =
am aware, *all* of the experimental parsers and *all* of the major reform p=
roposals, e.g. as Solpahi&#39;s connective reform, honor monoparsing (they =
simply rely on &gt;1 lookahead).=C2=A0 I am not sure why you believe that L=
ojbanists no longer care about monoparsing.=C2=A0 The opposite is true, as =
far as I can tell.<br><br></div><div>As far as your words &quot;[Lojban&#39=
;s] primary goal, monoparsing&quot; -- that&#39;s to me like saying &quot;a=
 house&#39;s primary goal, having a stable foundation&quot;.=C2=A0 In my vi=
ew, the primary goal of a logical language is to have a formal semantics, a=
nd a formal grammar is a requirement for that, just as the primary goal of =
a house is to be lived in, and having a stable foundation is a requirement =
for that.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir=3D"ltr"> =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr">My =
immediate question is, =E2=80=9CGiven that Lojban no longer strives for mon=
parsing, what reason is there to continue working on it or learning it?=E2=
=80=9D =C2=A0In the past, all the grotesqueries of Lojban morphology and gr=
ammar could be justified as necessary for the Great Goal.=C2=A0 But now tha=
t that Goal is gone, they merely constitute needless complexities that make=
 learning the language even harder.=C2=A0 Stripping away the 47 kinds of co=
mmas (and God forbid you should use the wrong one, even though it no longer=
 makes a crucial difference) (=E2=80=9947=E2=80=99 is merely a ridiculously=
 large number, not meant to be accurate) would make the language easier to =
learn and do that systematically for all the word classes would eventually =
get to something manageable. But there would still be no reason to learn it=
, because it doesn=E2=80=99t do anything that English (etc.) doesn=E2=80=99=
t do, nor do it in a novel and revealing way.<br></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Let&#39;s be honest.=C2=A0 Rex May showed in the 1=
980s that the unambiguous morphology could be made not only simpler but *ex=
tremely* simpler, and both the makers of Xorban and the grossly underrated =
Richard Morneau showed that the unambiguous grammar could be made not only =
simpler but *extremely* simpler.=C2=A0 Lojban is based on a rather clumsy (=
though original and interesting and exciting in 1960) prototype clumsily co=
mplexified by decades of patches upon patches.=C2=A0 I guess people stick w=
ith it because it has something the other languages do not have (namely a h=
istory and a community), though that may eventually change.=C2=A0 Already T=
oaq has an active user community and I predict other languages will be comi=
ng online in the next few years.=C2=A0 But I also predict the Lojban commun=
ity will continue to exist.<br><br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Hel=
vetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"=
ltr">If I counted right, there are at least nine version of Lojban floating=
 around with adherents.=C2=A0 The winnowing process is presumably already a=
t work and some of these are close to languages of one grumpy guy in a garr=
et.=C2=A0 Some have people in LLG offices (big whoop!).=C2=A0 Some have dec=
ent sized (say 12) groups here and there. What can any of these offer to ne=
wbies or possible converts to get them to join?=C2=A0 Nothing, really.=C2=
=A0 So, they will all fade away (the LLG section running on on inertia).</d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr">I recommend that all of you take a weekend off and lear=
n toki pona (maybe start Friday night and leave a little time over breakfas=
t on Monday). You will have a new language with a purpose (you can choose f=
rom half a dozen at least).=C2=A0 And you don=E2=80=99t lose the rights to =
constantly snipe at tiny infractions by your colinguals and to get into abs=
truse debate about details of grammar.=C2=A0 After all, I am in the middle =
of it.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I will not be jump=
ing on the Toki Pona parlor-game bandwagon any time soon.=C2=A0 Toki Pona i=
s ridiculously overhyped and grossly overrated in my opinion, is full of it=
s own problems, is a total joke and cop-out in terms of usability (&quot;ju=
st don&#39;t have words!&quot; -- wow, brilliant idea, Sonya; that solves e=
verything), and certainly does not represent a satisfactory language for th=
ose of us seeking a better logical language. <br><br></div><div>-Mike<br></=
div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div></div>
</div></div></div>

<p></p>

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