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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Gismu in need of place structure extensions
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On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 12:33:14 PM UTC-4, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>
> No. Precisely zi'o since the place structure would be different changing 
> semantics
>
This doesn't follow. The presence of a {zo'e} in a bridi does not imply the 
existence of an entity for which the bridi holds if the {zo'e} is 
substituted for that entity. That's {da}. As an elliptical, {zo'e} assumes 
the value of whatever sumti is contextually implied... and if context 
implies that nothing fits in that place, that sumti is {zi'o}. {zi'o} is a 
way of explicitly expressing that that particular place is inapplicable in 
the current context, but {zo'e} is *not* an explicit way of expressing that 
it is; it's a way of skipping a place and leaving its value implied.

Moreover, {kelci} is already sometimes used in the sense of playing a game, 
there exists text that would not break if read using my new definition 
{kelci}, but *would* break if read using my new {kelci} and edited to fill 
in the x3 place with {zi'o}. From La Alis chapter 8: 

> .i lo nu kelci cu cfari .i la .alis. cu jinvi lo du'u no roi lo nunji'e pu 
> viska lo tai kelcrkroke foldi
>
In this context, {lo nu kelci be fi zi'o} would be incorrect. They are 
playing croquet.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 12:33:14 PM UTC-4, Gleki=
 Arxokuna wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">No. Precisely =
zi&#39;o since the place structure would be different changing semantics<br=
></blockquote><div>This doesn&#39;t follow. The presence of a {zo&#39;e} <i=
></i>in a bridi does not imply the existence of an entity for which the bri=
di holds if the {zo&#39;e} is substituted for that entity. That&#39;s {da}.=
 As an elliptical, {zo&#39;e} assumes the value of whatever sumti is contex=
tually implied... and if context implies that nothing fits in that place, t=
hat sumti is {zi&#39;o}. {zi&#39;o} is a way of explicitly expressing that =
that particular place is inapplicable in the current context, but {zo&#39;e=
} is <i>not</i> an explicit way of expressing that it is; it&#39;s a way of=
 skipping a place and leaving its value implied.<br><br>Moreover, {kelci} i=
s already sometimes used in the sense of playing a game, there exists text =
that would not break if read using  my new definition {kelci}, but <i>would=
</i> break if read using my new {kelci} and edited to fill in the x3 place =
with {zi&#39;o}. From La Alis chapter 8: <br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204=
, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">.i lo nu kelci cu cfari .i la .alis. cu jinvi l=
o=20
du&#39;u no roi lo nunji&#39;e pu viska lo tai kelcrkroke foldi<br></blockq=
uote><div>In this context, {lo nu kelci be fi zi&#39;o} would be incorrect.=
 They are playing croquet.<br></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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