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From: Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:50:32 -0500
Message-ID: <CABM8VqdzVM2w3mXgUcZG6uqkBy-Q+LY5dRre-edXHu3+n_Cc5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Gismu in need of place structure extensions
To: Lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:12 PM <deusexmadmachina@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 12:33:14 PM UTC-4, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>>
>> No. Precisely zi'o since the place structure would be different changing
>> semantics
>>
> This doesn't follow. The presence of a {zo'e} in a bridi does not imply
> the existence of an entity for which the bridi holds if the {zo'e} is
> substituted for that entity. That's {da}. As an elliptical, {zo'e} assumes
> the value of whatever sumti is contextually implied... and if context
> implies that nothing fits in that place, that sumti is {zi'o}. {zi'o} is a
> way of explicitly expressing that that particular place is inapplicable in
> the current context, but {zo'e} is *not* an explicit way of expressing
> that it is; it's a way of skipping a place and leaving its value implied.
>

That's wrong about {zo'e} and about {zi'o}. {zo'e} absolutely does imply
the existence of an entity that satisfies the bridi. The way in which it's
different from {da} is that it also makes a claim about what that entity is
(specifically, that its value can be inferred from context, or that its
particular value isn't important in this context). {mi patfu zo'e} implies
{mi patfu da} every bit as much as {mi patfu do} does.

{zi'o}, on the other hand, doesn't say anything at all about what can or
can't fill that place. All it does is create a new predicate that doesn't
include that place. Now, as a practical matter, it's relatively rare to
assert a predicate that explicitly removes a place unless you want to imply
that the predicate with that place wouldn't also hold, but that's by no
means necessary. The empty set satisfies {zilcmi} ({se cmima be zi'o}, but
so do all other sets. The members place is removed, but there's no
implication that it's necessarily unfillable.


> Moreover, {kelci} is already sometimes used in the sense of playing a
> game, there exists text that would not break if read using my new
> definition {kelci}, but *would* break if read using my new {kelci} and
> edited to fill in the x3 place with {zi'o}. From La Alis chapter 8:
>
>> .i lo nu kelci cu cfari .i la .alis. cu jinvi lo du'u no roi lo nunji'e
>> pu viska lo tai kelcrkroke foldi
>>
> In this context, {lo nu kelci be fi zi'o} would be incorrect. They are
> playing croquet.
>

{lo nu kelci be fi zi'o}, if kelci3 were the game, would still be true. If
you ignore what game they're playing, they're still playing. {zo'e} implies
{da}, but {zi'o} does not imply {no da}.


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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:12 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:deusexmadmachina@gmail.com">deusexmadmachina@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 12:33:14 PM UTC-4=
, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">No=
. Precisely zi&#39;o since the place structure would be different changing =
semantics<br></blockquote><div>This doesn&#39;t follow. The presence of a {=
zo&#39;e} <i></i>in a bridi does not imply the existence of an entity for w=
hich the bridi holds if the {zo&#39;e} is substituted for that entity. That=
&#39;s {da}. As an elliptical, {zo&#39;e} assumes the value of whatever sum=
ti is contextually implied... and if context implies that nothing fits in t=
hat place, that sumti is {zi&#39;o}. {zi&#39;o} is a way of explicitly expr=
essing that that particular place is inapplicable in the current context, b=
ut {zo&#39;e} is <i>not</i> an explicit way of expressing that it is; it=
9;s a way of skipping a place and leaving its value implied.<br></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s wrong about {zo&#39;e} and abo=
ut {zi&#39;o}. {zo&#39;e} absolutely does imply the existence of an entity =
that satisfies=C2=A0the bridi. The way in which it&#39;s different from {da=
} is that it also makes a claim about what that entity is (specifically, th=
at its value can be inferred from context, or that its particular value isn=
&#39;t important in this context). {mi patfu zo&#39;e} implies {mi patfu da=
} every bit as much as {mi patfu do} does.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div=
>{zi&#39;o}, on the other hand, doesn&#39;t say anything at all about what =
can or can&#39;t fill that place. All it does is create a new predicate tha=
t doesn&#39;t include that place. Now, as a practical matter, it&#39;s rela=
tively rare to assert a predicate that explicitly removes a place unless yo=
u want to imply that the predicate with that place wouldn&#39;t also hold, =
but that&#39;s by no means necessary. The empty set satisfies {zilcmi} ({se=
 cmima be zi&#39;o}, but so do all other sets. The members place is removed=
, but there&#39;s no implication that it&#39;s necessarily unfillable.=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Moreover, {kelci} is already sometimes used in the s=
ense of playing a game, there exists text that would not break if read usin=
g  my new definition {kelci}, but <i>would</i> break if read using my new {=
kelci} and edited to fill in the x3 place with {zi&#39;o}. From La Alis cha=
pter 8: <br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">.i lo nu kelc=
i cu cfari .i la .alis. cu jinvi lo=20
du&#39;u no roi lo nunji&#39;e pu viska lo tai kelcrkroke foldi<br></blockq=
uote><div>In this context, {lo nu kelci be fi zi&#39;o} would be incorrect.=
 They are playing croquet.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>{lo nu kelci be fi zi&#39;o}, if kelci3 were the game, would still be=
 true. If you ignore what game they&#39;re playing, they&#39;re still playi=
ng. {zo&#39;e} implies {da}, but {zi&#39;o} does not imply {no da}.=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div><div></div></div></div>

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