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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Gismu in need of place structure extensions
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From: "Mark E. Shoulson" <mark@kli.org>
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Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 17:14:22 -0400
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The best example I can think of, that helps me understand {zi'o}, is to=20
realize that {cliva} is {klama be zi'o} (really {klama be zi'o bei fu=20
zi'o}, but it's the lack of destination that makes the difference.)=C2=A0=
=20
Similarly, {litru} is {klama be zi'o bei zi'o}.=C2=A0 Not that you can't ha=
ve=20
a source or a destination when you {litru}, but they are not only=20
irrelevant, there are not any part of the assertion.

(can {zo'e} not ever wind up meaning {no da}?=C2=A0 It makes sense that it=
=20
shouldn't, but was there a counterexample to that...?)

~mark

On 6/26/20 9:50 AM, Adam Lopresto wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:12 PM <deusexmadmachina@gmail.com=20
> <mailto:deusexmadmachina@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 12:33:14 PM UTC-4, Gleki Arxokuna
>     wrote:
>
>         No. Precisely zi'o since the place structure would be
>         different changing semantics
>
>     This doesn't follow. The presence of a {zo'e} in a bridi does not
>     imply the existence of an entity for which the bridi holds if the
>     {zo'e} is substituted for that entity. That's {da}. As an
>     elliptical, {zo'e} assumes the value of whatever sumti is
>     contextually implied... and if context implies that nothing fits
>     in that place, that sumti is {zi'o}. {zi'o} is a way of explicitly
>     expressing that that particular place is inapplicable in the
>     current context, but {zo'e} is /not/ an explicit way of expressing
>     that it is; it's a way of skipping a place and leaving its value
>     implied.
>
>
> That's wrong about {zo'e} and about {zi'o}. {zo'e} absolutely does=20
> imply the existence of an entity that satisfies=C2=A0the bridi. The way i=
n=20
> which it's different from {da} is that it also makes a claim about=20
> what that entity is (specifically, that its value can be inferred from=20
> context, or that its particular value isn't important in this=20
> context). {mi patfu zo'e} implies {mi patfu da} every bit as much as=20
> {mi patfu do} does.
> {zi'o}, on the other hand, doesn't say anything at all about what can=20
> or can't fill that place. All it does is create a new predicate that=20
> doesn't include that place. Now, as a practical matter, it's=20
> relatively rare to assert a predicate that explicitly removes a place=20
> unless you want to imply that the predicate with that place wouldn't=20
> also hold, but that's by no means necessary. The empty set satisfies=20
> {zilcmi} ({se cmima be zi'o}, but so do all other sets. The members=20
> place is removed, but there's no implication that it's necessarily=20
> unfillable.
>
>     Moreover, {kelci} is already sometimes used in the sense of
>     playing a game, there exists text that would not break if read
>     using my new definition {kelci}, but /would/ break if read using
>     my new {kelci} and edited to fill in the x3 place with {zi'o}.
>     From La Alis chapter 8:
>
>         .i lo nu kelci cu cfari .i la .alis. cu jinvi lo du'u no roi
>         lo nunji'e pu viska lo tai kelcrkroke foldi
>
>     In this context, {lo nu kelci be fi zi'o} would be incorrect. They
>     are playing croquet.
>
>
> {lo nu kelci be fi zi'o}, if kelci3 were the game, would still be=20
> true. If you ignore what game they're playing, they're still playing.=20
> {zo'e} implies {da}, but {zi'o} does not imply {no da}.
>
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    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">The best example I can think of, that
      helps me understand {zi'o}, is to realize that {cliva} is {klama
      be zi'o} (really {klama be zi'o bei fu zi'o}, but it's the lack of
      destination that makes the difference.)=C2=A0 Similarly, {litru} is
      {klama be zi'o bei zi'o}.=C2=A0 Not that you can't have a source or a
      destination when you {litru}, but they are not only irrelevant,
      there are not any part of the assertion.</div>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">(can {zo'e} not ever wind up meaning
      {no da}?=C2=A0 It makes sense that it shouldn't, but was there a
      counterexample to that...?)</div>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">~mark<br>
    </div>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 6/26/20 9:50 AM, Adam Lopresto
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"
cite=3D"mid:CABM8VqdzVM2w3mXgUcZG6uqkBy-Q+LY5dRre-edXHu3+n_Cc5Q@mail.gmail.=
com">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
-8">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div>On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:12 PM &lt;<a
            href=3D"mailto:deusexmadmachina@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">deusexmadmachina@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
              On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 12:33:14 PM UTC-4, Gleki
              Arxokuna wrote:
              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px
                0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">No. Precisely zi'o
                since the place structure would be different changing
                semantics<br>
              </blockquote>
              <div>This doesn't follow. The presence of a {zo'e} in a
                bridi does not imply the existence of an entity for
                which the bridi holds if the {zo'e} is substituted for
                that entity. That's {da}. As an elliptical, {zo'e}
                assumes the value of whatever sumti is contextually
                implied... and if context implies that nothing fits in
                that place, that sumti is {zi'o}. {zi'o} is a way of
                explicitly expressing that that particular place is
                inapplicable in the current context, but {zo'e} is <i>not</=
i>
                an explicit way of expressing that it is; it's a way of
                skipping a place and leaving its value implied.<br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>That's wrong about {zo'e} and about {zi'o}. {zo'e}
            absolutely does imply the existence of an entity that
            satisfies=C2=A0the bridi. The way in which it's different from
            {da} is that it also makes a claim about what that entity is
            (specifically, that its value can be inferred from context,
            or that its particular value isn't important in this
            context). {mi patfu zo'e} implies {mi patfu da} every bit as
            much as {mi patfu do} does.=C2=A0</div>
          <div>=C2=A0</div>
          <div>{zi'o}, on the other hand, doesn't say anything at all
            about what can or can't fill that place. All it does is
            create a new predicate that doesn't include that place. Now,
            as a practical matter, it's relatively rare to assert a
            predicate that explicitly removes a place unless you want to
            imply that the predicate with that place wouldn't also hold,
            but that's by no means necessary. The empty set satisfies
            {zilcmi} ({se cmima be zi'o}, but so do all other sets. The
            members place is removed, but there's no implication that
            it's necessarily unfillable.=C2=A0</div>
          <div>=C2=A0</div>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir=3D"ltr">
              <div>Moreover, {kelci} is already sometimes used in the
                sense of playing a game, there exists text that would
                not break if read using my new definition {kelci}, but <i>w=
ould</i>
                break if read using my new {kelci} and edited to fill in
                the x3 place with {zi'o}. From La Alis chapter 8: <br>
                <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px
                  0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                  rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">.i lo nu kelci cu
                  cfari .i la .alis. cu jinvi lo du'u no roi lo nunji'e
                  pu viska lo tai kelcrkroke foldi<br>
                </blockquote>
                <div>In this context, {lo nu kelci be fi zi'o} would be
                  incorrect. They are playing croquet.<br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>{lo nu kelci be fi zi'o}, if kelci3 were the game, would
            still be true. If you ignore what game they're playing,
            they're still playing. {zo'e} implies {da}, but {zi'o} does
            not imply {no da}.=C2=A0</div>
          <div>=C2=A0</div>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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