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Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 10:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jmive <mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Gismu in need of place structure extensions
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On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:13:26 AM UTC-4 gleki.is...@gmail.com wrote:

> Usage can be incorrect. Take the story of dikyjvo. We don't want Lojban to 
> become a language evolved from incorrect readings of gimste, do we.

oicai malkamdrakembaupevyske. Words mean what people mean by them. 
{dikyjvo} was an anomalous misnomer that was abandoned in favor of a better 
alternative that already existed in the language. No such alternative 
exists for the gaming sense of {kelci}. If {kelci} must not be used to mean 
"x1 plays a game", then both {kelci'e} and {ci'erkei} are wrong and there 
has been a gaping semantic hole in the language's lexicon for all of its 
existence up to this point -- games are a cultural universal; there really 
ought to be a gismu for that -- and this hole has been de facto filled by 
{kelci}, in spite of any supposed linguistic imperative that the word 
absolutely must not be used in such a way.

In such a case it is only sensible to bend to the will of the selbau and 
define the word in the sense in which it is commonly used. Coining the 
experimental "x1 plays game x2" would (by your reasoning) also be a poor 
choice: you would have edit all the old texts and tell everyone to change 
the way they {kelci}, replacing the previous "incorrect" usage with 
{pleci}. By your reasoning, we're screwed either way: either all text both 
past and future must zi'o out kelci3 wherever {kelci} is not being used in 
the gaming-related sense, or all text both past and future must substitute 
in the newfangled {pleci} wherever {kelci} *is* being used in the 
gaming-related sense.

But again, the semantic change to existing texts could be minimized if we 
define kelci3 to also apply to playful activities that are not games as 
such. Play is active, so play taking place logically necessitates that some 
playful activity is taking place. Behold, both senses of the word are 
encompassed, and no change to any existing text or usage is necessary.

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On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:13:26 AM UTC-4 gleki.is...@gmail.com wrote:=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left=
: 1ex;">Usage can be incorrect. Take the story of dikyjvo. We don't want Lo=
jban to become a language evolved from incorrect readings of gimste, do we.=
</blockquote><div>oicai malkamdrakembaupevyske. Words mean what people mean=
 by them. {dikyjvo} was an anomalous misnomer that was abandoned in favor o=
f a better alternative that already existed in the language. No such altern=
ative exists for the gaming sense of {kelci}. If {kelci} must not be used t=
o mean "x1 plays a game", then both {kelci'e} and {ci'erkei} are wrong and =
there has been a gaping semantic hole in the language's lexicon for all of =
its existence up to this point -- games are a cultural universal; there rea=
lly ought to be a gismu for that -- and this hole has been de facto filled =
by {kelci}, in spite of any supposed linguistic imperative that the word ab=
solutely must not be used in such a way.<br><br>In such a case it is only s=
ensible to bend to the will of the selbau and define the word in the sense =
in which it is commonly used. Coining the experimental "x1 plays game x2" w=
ould (by your reasoning) also be a poor choice: you would have edit all the=
 old texts and tell everyone to change the way they {kelci}, replacing the =
previous "incorrect" usage with {pleci}. By your reasoning, we're screwed e=
ither way: either all text both past and future must zi'o out kelci3 wherev=
er {kelci} is not being used in the gaming-related sense, or all text both =
past and future must substitute in the newfangled {pleci} wherever {kelci} =
<i>is</i> being used in the gaming-related sense.<br><br>But again, the sem=
antic change to existing texts could be minimized if we define kelci3 to al=
so apply to playful activities that are not games as such. Play is active, =
so play taking place logically necessitates that some playful activity is t=
aking place. Behold, both senses of the word are encompassed, and no change=
 to any existing text or usage is necessary.<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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