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From: Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 11:46:57 -0400
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I don't see a problem with adding this extra place as what people already
know is still valid and this last place would just be elided. This is an
enhancement only and can be easily explained on the fly. If it comes up
only one or two times I believe most speakers will remember it. I'm not
saying there isn't now a way to say, for instance, that you are playing
chess. This is a more straightforward way to do it, though.

Adding to the end of a gismu is much less of a change than changing it in
the middle. When we were originally working on place structures for the
gismu long ago we knew there would be some that needed to be expanded (and
shortened).

. karis. /Karen Stein


On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 13:17 <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> lojban@googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#!forum/lojban/topics> Google
> Groups
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email/#!overview>
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email/#!overview>
> Topic digest
> View all topics
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#!forum/lojban/topics>
>
>    - Gismu in need of place structure extensions
>    <#m_7610353345836717460_group_thread_0> - 2 Updates
>
> Gismu in need of place structure extensions
> <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/fec74f38381c28d3?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email>
> Jmive <mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu>: Jun 23 12:42PM -0700
>
> What gismu feel like they have incomplete place structures?
>
> The lujvo {ci'erkei} and {kelci'e} feel like they only exist because
> {kelci} is missing a spot about what game is being played and/or its
> rules.
> The primary sense of the word seems to be about unstructured play, in the
> sense that a child plays with toys. But even this sense could be improved
> by a place for the game that's being played, as unstructured play can form
> unstructured games, usually of an imaginative sort, such as "cops and
> robbers" or "house".
>
> Proposed alternative definition:
>
> > x1 plays with toy/plaything/gamepiece x2 in game x3
>
> With this, {kelci} becomes like a recreational (rather than productive)
> version of {pilno}.
>
> Alterations to existing lujvo semantics: {nunkei} becomes "play session"
> or
> a game in the sense meaning "match" -- the thing you're referring to when
> you say "good game". {samselkei} might mean a gaming console (such that
> s1=k2); {dracyselkei} might mean a miniature, die, or LARP prop. I would
> argue that these are closer to the literal meanings of those lujvo to
> begin
> with, since {selkei} is defined as "toy", not "game".
> Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>: Jun 24 02:32AM -0700
>
> Or if you don't like existing lujvo you can just create new words instead
> of trying to redo existing words that others have already learned the way
> they are. This way it'd be less egocentric.
> Back to top <#m_7610353345836717460_digest_top>
> You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this
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> .
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<div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39;t see a problem with adding this extra place as=
 what people already know is still valid and this last place would just be =
elided. This is an enhancement only and can be easily explained on the fly.=
 If it comes up only one or two times I believe most speakers will remember=
 it. I&#39;m not saying there isn&#39;t now a way to say, for instance, tha=
t you are playing chess. This is a more straightforward way to do it, thoug=
h.=C2=A0<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Adding to the end of =
a gismu is much less of a change than changing it in the middle. When we we=
re originally working on place structures for the gismu long ago we knew th=
ere would be some that needed to be expanded (and shortened).</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">. karis. /Karen Stein</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 13:17  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojb=
an@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"border:1px solid #d3d3d3;max-width:850px;font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif;color:#000000">
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st&amp;utm_medium=3Demail#!forum/lojban/topics" style=3D"text-decoration:no=
ne;color:#333333" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">
              lojban@googlegroups.com</a>
            </span>
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            <span style=3D"font:20px/24px arial"><a style=3D"color:#dd4b39;=
text-decoration:none" href=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=
=3Ddigest&amp;utm_medium=3Demail/#!overview" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noref=
errer">Google Groups</a></span>
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&amp;utm_medium=3Demail/#!overview" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"><i=
mg style=3D"border:0;vertical-align:middle" src=3D"http://www.google.com/im=
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<div style=3D"font-family:arial;color:#222222;padding:0px">
  <a name=3D"m_7610353345836717460_digest_top" style=3D"font-size:21px" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">
 =20
 =20
    Topic digest
 =20
  </a><br>
  <span style=3D"font-size:11px">
    <a style=3D"color:#1155cc;text-decoration:none" href=3D"https://groups.=
google.com/forum/?utm_source=3Ddigest&amp;utm_medium=3Demail#!forum/lojban/=
topics" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">View all topics</a>
  </span>
</div>
<div style=3D"font:13px/18px arial;color:#222222;padding:0px;margin-bottom:=
30px">
  <ul style=3D"margin-left:3px;padding-left:0px">
 =20
    <li>
      <a style=3D"color:#1155cc;text-decoration:none" href=3D"#m_7610353345=
836717460_group_thread_0" rel=3D"noreferrer">
      Gismu in need of place structure extensions</a> -
      <span style=3D"color:#777777">2 Updates</span>
    </li>
 =20
  </ul>
</div>


 =20
  <a name=3D"m_7610353345836717460_group_thread_0" rel=3D"noreferrer"></a>
  <div style=3D"display:inline-block;font-family:arial;padding:4px 0 5px 0p=
x">
 =20
    <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/fec74f38381c28d3?utm=
_source=3Ddigest&amp;utm_medium=3Demail" style=3D"font-size:21px;color:#115=
5cc;text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">
      Gismu in need of place structure extensions
    </a>
 =20
  </div>

  <table style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;width:100%">
   =20
      <tr><td style=3D"background-color:#ffffff;color:#2e2e2e;font-family:a=
rial;padding:10px 15px;border:1px solid #d3d3d3">
        <span style=3D"color:#b1b0b0;font-size:15px">
          Jmive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu" target=3D"_bl=
ank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu</a>&gt;: Jun 23 12:42PM -070=
0
        </span>
        <br><br>
        What gismu feel like they have incomplete place structures?<br>
=C2=A0<br>
The lujvo {ci&#39;erkei} and {kelci&#39;e} feel like they only exist becaus=
e <br>
{kelci} is missing a spot about what game is being played and/or its rules.=
 <br>
The primary sense of the word seems to be about unstructured play, in the <=
br>
sense that a child plays with toys. But even this sense could be improved <=
br>
by a place for the game that&#39;s being played, as unstructured play can f=
orm <br>
unstructured games, usually of an imaginative sort, such as &quot;cops and =
<br>
robbers&quot; or &quot;house&quot;.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Proposed alternative definition:<br>
=C2=A0<br>
&gt; x1 plays with toy/plaything/gamepiece x2 in game x3<br>
=C2=A0<br>
With this, {kelci} becomes like a recreational (rather than productive) <br=
>
version of {pilno}.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Alterations to existing lujvo semantics: {nunkei} becomes &quot;play sessio=
n&quot; or <br>
a game in the sense meaning &quot;match&quot; -- the thing you&#39;re refer=
ring to when <br>
you say &quot;good game&quot;. {samselkei} might mean a gaming console (suc=
h that <br>
s1=3Dk2); {dracyselkei} might mean a miniature, die, or LARP prop. I would =
<br>
argue that these are closer to the literal meanings of those lujvo to begin=
 <br>
with, since {selkei} is defined as &quot;toy&quot;, not &quot;game&quot;.<b=
r>

      </td></tr>
   =20
      <tr><td style=3D"background-color:#ffffff;color:#2e2e2e;font-family:a=
rial;padding:10px 15px;border:1px solid #d3d3d3">
        <span style=3D"color:#b1b0b0;font-size:15px">
          Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;: Ju=
n 24 02:32AM -0700
        </span>
        <br><br>
        Or if you don&#39;t like existing lujvo you can just create new wor=
ds instead of trying to redo existing words that others have already learne=
d the way they are. This way it&#39;d be less egocentric.<br>

      </td></tr>
   =20
  </table>
  <div style=3D"font-size:11px;margin-bottom:40px;margin-top:5px">
    <a style=3D"color:#1155cc;text-decoration:none" href=3D"#m_761035334583=
6717460_digest_top" rel=3D"noreferrer">Back to top</a>
  </div>


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  <div style=3D"background-color:#f5f5f5;padding:5px 20px">
  <table cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" style=3D"width:100%">
  <tbody><tr>
    <td style=3D"padding-top:4px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#636363=
;font-size:11px">
     =20
      You received this digest because you&#39;re subscribed to updates for=
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google.com/forum/?utm_source=3Ddigest&amp;utm_medium=3Demail#!forum/lojban/=
join" style=3D"color:#1155cc;text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"noreferrer">group membership page</a>.<br>
      To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send=
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</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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