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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gv9si978314pjb.3.2020.06.28.08.55.51 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of comcaresvcs@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::133; Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id i18so12429990ilk.10 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a92:d1cd:: with SMTP id u13mr12561607ilg.258.1593359751017; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00000000000001204505a8d7a580@google.com> In-Reply-To: From: Karen Stein Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 11:55:39 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Digest for lojban@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f579ef05a926f9af" X-Original-Sender: comcaresvcs@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="Odrk/iVz"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of comcaresvcs@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=comcaresvcs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- --000000000000f579ef05a926f9af Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I forgot to add that " if you don't like existing lujvo you can just create new words" as gleki said that's an entire word a listener or reader would need to figure out or ask about. Adding a third place to nelci is easier to learn than a new lujvo, particularly as keeping track of all the rafsi, pulling apart a lujvo to find the rafsi, then figuring out what the place structure should be all on the fly. .karis. On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 11:46 Karen Stein wrote: > I don't see a problem with adding this extra place as what people already > know is still valid and this last place would just be elided. This is an > enhancement only and can be easily explained on the fly. If it comes up > only one or two times I believe most speakers will remember it. I'm not > saying there isn't now a way to say, for instance, that you are playing > chess. This is a more straightforward way to do it, though. > > Adding to the end of a gismu is much less of a change than changing it in > the middle. When we were originally working on place structures for the > gismu long ago we knew there would be some that needed to be expanded (and > shortened). > > . karis. /Karen Stein > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 13:17 wrote: > >> lojban@googlegroups.com >> Google >> Groups >> >> >> Topic digest >> View all topics >> >> >> - Gismu in need of place structure extensions >> <#m_2097894387709070725_m_7610353345836717460_group_thread_0> - 2 >> Updates >> >> Gismu in need of place structure extensions >> >> Jmive : Jun 23 12:42PM -0700 >> >> What gismu feel like they have incomplete place structures? >> >> The lujvo {ci'erkei} and {kelci'e} feel like they only exist because >> {kelci} is missing a spot about what game is being played and/or its >> rules. >> The primary sense of the word seems to be about unstructured play, in the >> sense that a child plays with toys. But even this sense could be improved >> by a place for the game that's being played, as unstructured play can >> form >> unstructured games, usually of an imaginative sort, such as "cops and >> robbers" or "house". >> >> Proposed alternative definition: >> >> > x1 plays with toy/plaything/gamepiece x2 in game x3 >> >> With this, {kelci} becomes like a recreational (rather than productive) >> version of {pilno}. >> >> Alterations to existing lujvo semantics: {nunkei} becomes "play session" >> or >> a game in the sense meaning "match" -- the thing you're referring to when >> you say "good game". {samselkei} might mean a gaming console (such that >> s1=k2); {dracyselkei} might mean a miniature, die, or LARP prop. I would >> argue that these are closer to the literal meanings of those lujvo to >> begin >> with, since {selkei} is defined as "toy", not "game". >> Gleki Arxokuna : Jun 24 02:32AM -0700 >> >> Or if you don't like existing lujvo you can just create new words instead >> of trying to redo existing words that others have already learned the way >> they are. This way it'd be less egocentric. >> Back to top <#m_2097894387709070725_m_7610353345836717460_digest_top> >> You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this >> group. You can change your settings on the group membership page >> >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/CADbAA4V-DudLfLwd0x704Z1ggyxGDQUJ9jOYUfCziBHqy7qJSw%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000f579ef05a926f9af Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I forgot to add that "=C2=A0if you= don't like existing lujvo you can just create new words" as gleki= said that's an entire word a listener or reader would need to figure o= ut or ask about. Adding a third place to nelci is easier to learn than a ne= w lujvo, particularly as keeping track of all the rafsi, pulling apart a lu= jvo to find the rafsi, then figuring out what the place structure should be= all on the fly.=C2=A0

.karis.=C2=A0

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 11:46= Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail= .com> wrote:
I don't see a problem with adding this extra place as what people al= ready know is still valid and this last place would just be elided. This is= an enhancement only and can be easily explained on the fly. If it comes up= only one or two times I believe most speakers will remember it. I'm no= t saying there isn't now a way to say, for instance, that you are playi= ng chess. This is a more straightforward way to do it, though.=C2=A0

Adding to the end of a gismu is much= less of a change than changing it in the middle. When we were originally w= orking on place structures for the gismu long ago we knew there would be so= me that needed to be expanded (and shortened).

<= /div>
. karis. /Karen Stein


On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 13:17 <lojban@googlegroups.com> wr= ote:
=20 =20 =20 =20
Jmive <mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu>: Jun 23 1= 2:42PM -0700

What gismu feel like they have incomplete place structures?
=C2=A0
The lujvo {ci'erkei} and {kelci'e} feel like they only exist becaus= e
{kelci} is missing a spot about what game is being played and/or its rules.=
The primary sense of the word seems to be about unstructured play, in the <= br> sense that a child plays with toys. But even this sense could be improved <= br> by a place for the game that's being played, as unstructured play can f= orm
unstructured games, usually of an imaginative sort, such as "cops and =
robbers" or "house".
=C2=A0
Proposed alternative definition:
=C2=A0
> x1 plays with toy/plaything/gamepiece x2 in game x3
=C2=A0
With this, {kelci} becomes like a recreational (rather than productive) version of {pilno}.
=C2=A0
Alterations to existing lujvo semantics: {nunkei} becomes "play sessio= n" or
a game in the sense meaning "match" -- the thing you're refer= ring to when
you say "good game". {samselkei} might mean a gaming console (suc= h that
s1=3Dk2); {dracyselkei} might mean a miniature, die, or LARP prop. I would =
argue that these are closer to the literal meanings of those lujvo to begin=
with, since {selkei} is defined as "toy", not "game".
Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com<= /a>>: Jun 24 02:32AM -0700

Or if you don't like existing lujvo you can just create new wor= ds instead of trying to redo existing words that others have already learne= d the way they are. This way it'd be less egocentric.
=20 You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for= this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send= an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m.

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