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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 12:11:49 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Digest for lojban@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic
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  I mean, adding new places to gismu can already be done on the fly.  It's
called BAI and FI'O...FE'U/  Don't really need to go around obsoleting
gi'uste

      --gejyspa

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:55 AM Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote:

> I forgot to add that " if you don't like existing lujvo you can just
> create new words" as gleki said that's an entire word a listener or reader
> would need to figure out or ask about. Adding a third place to nelci is
> easier to learn than a new lujvo, particularly as keeping track of all the
> rafsi, pulling apart a lujvo to find the rafsi, then figuring out what the
> place structure should be all on the fly.
>
> .karis.
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 11:46 Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't see a problem with adding this extra place as what people already
>> know is still valid and this last place would just be elided. This is an
>> enhancement only and can be easily explained on the fly. If it comes up
>> only one or two times I believe most speakers will remember it. I'm not
>> saying there isn't now a way to say, for instance, that you are playing
>> chess. This is a more straightforward way to do it, though.
>>
>> Adding to the end of a gismu is much less of a change than changing it in
>> the middle. When we were originally working on place structures for the
>> gismu long ago we knew there would be some that needed to be expanded (and
>> shortened).
>>
>> . karis. /Karen Stein
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 13:17 <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> lojban@googlegroups.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#!forum/lojban/topics> Google
>>> Groups
>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email/#!overview>
>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email/#!overview>
>>> Topic digest
>>> View all topics
>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#!forum/lojban/topics>
>>>
>>>    - Gismu in need of place structure extensions
>>>    <#m_-884177504807545782_m_2097894387709070725_m_7610353345836717460_group_thread_0>
>>>    - 2 Updates
>>>
>>> Gismu in need of place structure extensions
>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/fec74f38381c28d3?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email>
>>> Jmive <mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu>: Jun 23 12:42PM -0700
>>>
>>> What gismu feel like they have incomplete place structures?
>>>
>>> The lujvo {ci'erkei} and {kelci'e} feel like they only exist because
>>> {kelci} is missing a spot about what game is being played and/or its
>>> rules.
>>> The primary sense of the word seems to be about unstructured play, in
>>> the
>>> sense that a child plays with toys. But even this sense could be
>>> improved
>>> by a place for the game that's being played, as unstructured play can
>>> form
>>> unstructured games, usually of an imaginative sort, such as "cops and
>>> robbers" or "house".
>>>
>>> Proposed alternative definition:
>>>
>>> > x1 plays with toy/plaything/gamepiece x2 in game x3
>>>
>>> With this, {kelci} becomes like a recreational (rather than productive)
>>> version of {pilno}.
>>>
>>> Alterations to existing lujvo semantics: {nunkei} becomes "play session"
>>> or
>>> a game in the sense meaning "match" -- the thing you're referring to
>>> when
>>> you say "good game". {samselkei} might mean a gaming console (such that
>>> s1=k2); {dracyselkei} might mean a miniature, die, or LARP prop. I would
>>> argue that these are closer to the literal meanings of those lujvo to
>>> begin
>>> with, since {selkei} is defined as "toy", not "game".
>>> Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>: Jun 24 02:32AM -0700
>>>
>>> Or if you don't like existing lujvo you can just create new words
>>> instead of trying to redo existing words that others have already learned
>>> the way they are. This way it'd be less egocentric.
>>> Back to top
>>> <#m_-884177504807545782_m_2097894387709070725_m_7610353345836717460_digest_top>
>>> You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this
>>> group. You can change your settings on the group membership page
>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#!forum/lojban/join>
>>> .
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>>> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>
>> --
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 I mean, adding new places to gismu can already be d=
one on the fly.=C2=A0 It&#39;s called BAI and FI&#39;O...FE&#39;U/=C2=A0 Do=
n&#39;t really need to go around obsoleting gi&#39;uste<div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:55 AM Karen =
Stein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:comcaresvcs@gmail.com">comcaresvcs@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><div>I forgot to add that &quot;=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:r=
gb(46,46,46);font-family:arial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">if you do=
n&#39;t like existing lujvo you can just create new words&quot; as gleki sa=
id that&#39;s an entire word a listener or reader would need to figure out =
or ask about. Adding a third place to nelci is easier to learn than a new l=
ujvo, particularly as keeping track of all the rafsi, pulling apart a lujvo=
 to find the rafsi, then figuring out what the place structure should be al=
l on the fly.=C2=A0</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font color=3D"#2e2e2e" f=
ace=3D"arial"><br></font></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font color=3D"#2e2e2e" fa=
ce=3D"arial">.karis.=C2=A0<br></font><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"=
auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 11:46 Kar=
en Stein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:comcaresvcs@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">com=
caresvcs@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39;t see a problem with adding t=
his extra place as what people already know is still valid and this last pl=
ace would just be elided. This is an enhancement only and can be easily exp=
lained on the fly. If it comes up only one or two times I believe most spea=
kers will remember it. I&#39;m not saying there isn&#39;t now a way to say,=
 for instance, that you are playing chess. This is a more straightforward w=
ay to do it, though.=C2=A0<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Add=
ing to the end of a gismu is much less of a change than changing it in the =
middle. When we were originally working on place structures for the gismu l=
ong ago we knew there would be some that needed to be expanded (and shorten=
ed).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">. karis. /Karen Ste=
in</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 13:17  &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">l=
ojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">
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ottom:30px">
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 =20
    <li>
      <a style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);text-decoration:none" href=3D"#m_-88=
4177504807545782_m_2097894387709070725_m_7610353345836717460_group_thread_0=
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      Gismu in need of place structure extensions</a> -
      <span style=3D"color:rgb(119,119,119)">2 Updates</span>
    </li>
 =20
  </ul>
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 =20
  <a name=3D"m_-884177504807545782_m_2097894387709070725_m_7610353345836717=
460_group_thread_0" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer"></a>
  <div style=3D"display:inline-block;font-family:arial;padding:4px 0px 5px"=
>
 =20
    <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/fec74f38381c28d3?utm=
_source=3Ddigest&amp;utm_medium=3Demail" style=3D"font-size:21px;color:rgb(=
17,85,204);text-decoration:none" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">
      Gismu in need of place structure extensions
    </a>
 =20
  </div>

  <table style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;width:100%">
   =20
      <tbody><tr><td style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(4=
6,46,46);font-family:arial;padding:10px 15px;border:1px solid rgb(211,211,2=
11)">
        <span style=3D"color:rgb(177,176,176);font-size:15px">
          Jmive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu</a>&gt;: Jun 23 1=
2:42PM -0700
        </span>
        <br><br>
        What gismu feel like they have incomplete place structures?<br>
=C2=A0<br>
The lujvo {ci&#39;erkei} and {kelci&#39;e} feel like they only exist becaus=
e <br>
{kelci} is missing a spot about what game is being played and/or its rules.=
 <br>
The primary sense of the word seems to be about unstructured play, in the <=
br>
sense that a child plays with toys. But even this sense could be improved <=
br>
by a place for the game that&#39;s being played, as unstructured play can f=
orm <br>
unstructured games, usually of an imaginative sort, such as &quot;cops and =
<br>
robbers&quot; or &quot;house&quot;.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Proposed alternative definition:<br>
=C2=A0<br>
&gt; x1 plays with toy/plaything/gamepiece x2 in game x3<br>
=C2=A0<br>
With this, {kelci} becomes like a recreational (rather than productive) <br=
>
version of {pilno}.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Alterations to existing lujvo semantics: {nunkei} becomes &quot;play sessio=
n&quot; or <br>
a game in the sense meaning &quot;match&quot; -- the thing you&#39;re refer=
ring to when <br>
you say &quot;good game&quot;. {samselkei} might mean a gaming console (suc=
h that <br>
s1=3Dk2); {dracyselkei} might mean a miniature, die, or LARP prop. I would =
<br>
argue that these are closer to the literal meanings of those lujvo to begin=
 <br>
with, since {selkei} is defined as &quot;toy&quot;, not &quot;game&quot;.<b=
r>

      </td></tr>
   =20
      <tr><td style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(46,46,46=
);font-family:arial;padding:10px 15px;border:1px solid rgb(211,211,211)">
        <span style=3D"color:rgb(177,176,176);font-size:15px">
          Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;: Jun 24 02:32AM -0700
        </span>
        <br><br>
        Or if you don&#39;t like existing lujvo you can just create new wor=
ds instead of trying to redo existing words that others have already learne=
d the way they are. This way it&#39;d be less egocentric.<br>

      </td></tr>
   =20
  </tbody></table>
  <div style=3D"font-size:11px;margin-bottom:40px;margin-top:5px">
    <a style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);text-decoration:none" href=3D"#m_-8841=
77504807545782_m_2097894387709070725_m_7610353345836717460_digest_top" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer">Back to top</a>
  </div>


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     =20
      You received this digest because you&#39;re subscribed to updates for=
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</blockquote></div>
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