Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 09:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Gismu in need of place structure extensions
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Are you a native English speaker? Or some SAE language? I consider your=20
reasoning malgli. Do you speak any East Asia languages?
Em s=C3=A1bado, 27 de junho de 2020 20:52:04 UTC+3, Jmive escreveu:
>
> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:13:26 AM UTC-4 gleki.is...@gmail.com=20
> wrote:
>
>> Usage can be incorrect. Take the story of dikyjvo. We don't want Lojban=
=20
>> to become a language evolved from incorrect readings of gimste, do we.
>
> oicai malkamdrakembaupevyske. Words mean what people mean by them.=20
> {dikyjvo} was an anomalous misnomer that was abandoned in favor of a bett=
er=20
> alternative that already existed in the language. No such alternative=20
> exists for the gaming sense of {kelci}. If {kelci} must not be used to me=
an=20
> "x1 plays a game", then both {kelci'e} and {ci'erkei} are wrong and there=
=20
> has been a gaping semantic hole in the language's lexicon for all of its=
=20
> existence up to this point -- games are a cultural universal; there reall=
y=20
> ought to be a gismu for that -- and this hole has been de facto filled by=
=20
> {kelci}, in spite of any supposed linguistic imperative that the word=20
> absolutely must not be used in such a way.
>
> In such a case it is only sensible to bend to the will of the selbau and=
=20
> define the word in the sense in which it is commonly used. Coining the=20
> experimental "x1 plays game x2" would (by your reasoning) also be a poor=
=20
> choice: you would have edit all the old texts and tell everyone to change=
=20
> the way they {kelci}, replacing the previous "incorrect" usage with=20
> {pleci}. By your reasoning, we're screwed either way: either all text bot=
h=20
> past and future must zi'o out kelci3 wherever {kelci} is not being used i=
n=20
> the gaming-related sense, or all text both past and future must substitut=
e=20
> in the newfangled {pleci} wherever {kelci} *is* being used in the=20
> gaming-related sense.
>
> But again, the semantic change to existing texts could be minimized if we=
=20
> define kelci3 to also apply to playful activities that are not games as=
=20
> such. Play is active, so play taking place logically necessitates that so=
me=20
> playful activity is taking place. Behold, both senses of the word are=20
> encompassed, and no change to any existing text or usage is necessary.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Are you a native English speaker? Or some SAE language=
? I consider your reasoning malgli. Do you speak any East Asia languages?<b=
r>Em s=C3=A1bado, 27 de junho de 2020 20:52:04 UTC+3, Jmive  escreveu:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-l=
eft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:13:=
26 AM UTC-4 <a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Usage can be incorrect. Take=
 the story of dikyjvo. We don&#39;t want Lojban to become a language evolve=
d from incorrect readings of gimste, do we.</blockquote><div>oicai malkamdr=
akembaupevyske. Words mean what people mean by them. {dikyjvo} was an anoma=
lous misnomer that was abandoned in favor of a better alternative that alre=
ady existed in the language. No such alternative exists for the gaming sens=
e of {kelci}. If {kelci} must not be used to mean &quot;x1 plays a game&quo=
t;, then both {kelci&#39;e} and {ci&#39;erkei} are wrong and there has been=
 a gaping semantic hole in the language&#39;s lexicon for all of its existe=
nce up to this point -- games are a cultural universal; there really ought =
to be a gismu for that -- and this hole has been de facto filled by {kelci}=
, in spite of any supposed linguistic imperative that the word absolutely m=
ust not be used in such a way.<br><br>In such a case it is only sensible to=
 bend to the will of the selbau and define the word in the sense in which i=
t is commonly used. Coining the experimental &quot;x1 plays game x2&quot; w=
ould (by your reasoning) also be a poor choice: you would have edit all the=
 old texts and tell everyone to change the way they {kelci}, replacing the =
previous &quot;incorrect&quot; usage with {pleci}. By your reasoning, we=
9;re screwed either way: either all text both past and future must zi&#39;o=
 out kelci3 wherever {kelci} is not being used in the gaming-related sense,=
 or all text both past and future must substitute in the newfangled {pleci}=
 wherever {kelci} <i>is</i> being used in the gaming-related sense.<br><br>=
But again, the semantic change to existing texts could be minimized if we d=
efine kelci3 to also apply to playful activities that are not games as such=
. Play is active, so play taking place logically necessitates that some pla=
yful activity is taking place. Behold, both senses of the word are encompas=
sed, and no change to any existing text or usage is necessary.<br></div></d=
iv></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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