Received: from mail-yb1-f186.google.com ([209.85.219.186]:48988) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jqJWj-0003Ku-Sb for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Jun 2020 09:54:35 -0700 Received: by mail-yb1-f186.google.com with SMTP id n11sf23228484ybg.15 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 2020 09:54:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=xqeH4U/6JWgy7PrIbW6QeRqZiCYApzouIqph+/oBCXg=; b=R4U5QCMBScctt3oAdCNxJB/MECk/IIZPpnsswY/EWZ7beXWG2V/ZhlyrHjrJvAKv8b UAAMLjh580ZyZ0Vqi3Tf8fYrAyaV/hndk5Cdqu8ihNAIirsQfabcbWQRldWXMxbhaP4Y Oq2uFUYES5B21jTvG6EN+euGcVLw6yTqtw8Gu1vU8+8taEVBadZMuOdKRKgu7+uCiQ7D ZpX5IrqG1ps7mZmvX3dLQOiNuzPBBuSktdwfDoxWBrB8m5//j9xQrAomrEqe8n4l0r8h OrU94x6wE7m2Hha9XrAfTvzgu9u5gQ+bSChUkrbjvHzELHrHtsZI3LfafU88unMIxyLH nnvQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=xqeH4U/6JWgy7PrIbW6QeRqZiCYApzouIqph+/oBCXg=; b=uSsUmowMhSrHqt+hiaDyCNYSRJxz+6PN+ieuboH969gFxMxLsO7z8HjVmzZItNWb4p 1W+epZidcQvyiQ6o1uvqJs3kOwhLhWGAz2+2rblIc78lpZPPCM565XBmakceHMxKSWRf zx4OTJ+5GMUpIrBZi4uM3CZ9ySTP3e4+cr6MxXUxrwEvybAQrutkNh7u+hj6Eqk/oxB2 PEtq2gz4tCqYBG1DNPwauV68g7WjGwlcx4CA6VqJm+7HGHOlIj04Km53nh0hoDIh6bDf IK+CcZQ76PDd1/cFPH41YhNnXn31Tuh1wG+0cIlR09gmIfrP2/u3eoDk5CsoEZ7tMOQm Kg/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=xqeH4U/6JWgy7PrIbW6QeRqZiCYApzouIqph+/oBCXg=; b=YO2oJQzQykvBeTWaVXlwe7/mZgszFjeqXvVZ4RZgYdcMOTt1ozI3Bn+8hsu/H8xOZz u0IKrjOZxANpHOLCODt5ozcwxhJ51C3wbuJuFawS+0x8jguz0GL0TE5TJOkiYpsa/Xyt UmCfbHElVCYuEVcAwlAsNGAjXSk8b4pxvXgpNtvND6GigQqnKAkXWIolMlSCKKLKKtOB q4ggW+ljTSPBi+LcKUQHXN0GNcam4wvOqGq+DtVts/js+oXPmYkG5PYSZZsT7r2uzj56 o+tkZ7Tdoe0sEQBW3UwC88uw+cF3Anpb4TT3zehVi+DNwTMO7LjxN0FLsfYwwPnT+Z9u L3aQ== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532kyorh1BcRO1lmfB3TWNtIEnNIjR02qRbMOXe3QSOfF8VSonDH EFMzfk4pPXtcb9ptX+gG7EA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwcZ7gROoJ8rr0USXQNozRYVAgQAthMRGdr45sjJrohtSMHW12d34pg1MPYb/RBGUR2VrlEww== X-Received: by 2002:a25:d297:: with SMTP id j145mr36895061ybg.18.1593536068017; Tue, 30 Jun 2020 09:54:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a25:7003:: with SMTP id l3ls1424127ybc.2.gmail; Tue, 30 Jun 2020 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:ec0f:: with SMTP id j15mr26665345ybh.442.1593536067079; Tue, 30 Jun 2020 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban Message-Id: <695bd658-bbf8-43c5-a961-a4e8c4868997o@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <00000000000001204505a8d7a580@google.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Digest for lojban@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1763_603865456.1593536065202" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_1763_603865456.1593536065202 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1764_2026023038.1593536065203" ------=_Part_1764_2026023038.1593536065203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think it does change semantics of kelci and can therefore cause confusion Em domingo, 28 de junho de 2020 18:47:11 UTC+3, karis escreveu: > > I don't see a problem with adding this extra place as what people already > know is still valid and this last place would just be elided. This is an > enhancement only and can be easily explained on the fly. If it comes up > only one or two times I believe most speakers will remember it. I'm not > saying there isn't now a way to say, for instance, that you are playing > chess. This is a more straightforward way to do it, though. > > Adding to the end of a gismu is much less of a change than changing it in > the middle. When we were originally working on place structures for the > gismu long ago we knew there would be some that needed to be expanded (and > shortened). > > . karis. /Karen Stein > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 13:17 wrote: > >> lojban@googlegroups.com >> Google >> Groups >> >> >> Topic digest >> View all topics >> >> >> - Gismu in need of place structure extensions >> <#CADbAA4UME=AQL9szkinjr44aCasfSd80ipdY3PQc278suSiOWw@mail.gmail.com_m_7610353345836717460_group_thread_0> >> - 2 Updates >> >> Gismu in need of place structure extensions >> >> Jmive : Jun 23 12:42PM -0700 >> >> What gismu feel like they have incomplete place structures? >> >> The lujvo {ci'erkei} and {kelci'e} feel like they only exist because >> {kelci} is missing a spot about what game is being played and/or its >> rules. >> The primary sense of the word seems to be about unstructured play, in the >> sense that a child plays with toys. But even this sense could be improved >> by a place for the game that's being played, as unstructured play can >> form >> unstructured games, usually of an imaginative sort, such as "cops and >> robbers" or "house". >> >> Proposed alternative definition: >> >> > x1 plays with toy/plaything/gamepiece x2 in game x3 >> >> With this, {kelci} becomes like a recreational (rather than productive) >> version of {pilno}. >> >> Alterations to existing lujvo semantics: {nunkei} becomes "play session" >> or >> a game in the sense meaning "match" -- the thing you're referring to when >> you say "good game". {samselkei} might mean a gaming console (such that >> s1=k2); {dracyselkei} might mean a miniature, die, or LARP prop. I would >> argue that these are closer to the literal meanings of those lujvo to >> begin >> with, since {selkei} is defined as "toy", not "game". >> Gleki Arxokuna : Jun 24 02:32AM -0700 >> >> Or if you don't like existing lujvo you can just create new words instead >> of trying to redo existing words that others have already learned the way >> they are. This way it'd be less egocentric. >> Back to top >> <#CADbAA4UME=AQL9szkinjr44aCasfSd80ipdY3PQc278suSiOWw@mail.gmail.com_m_7610353345836717460_digest_top> >> You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this >> group. You can change your settings on the group membership page >> >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/695bd658-bbf8-43c5-a961-a4e8c4868997o%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_1764_2026023038.1593536065203 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think it does change semantics of kelci and can ther= efore cause confusion
Em domingo, 28 de junho de 2020 18:47:11 UTC+3, ka= ris escreveu:
I don't see a problem with adding this extra place as what people alr= eady know is still valid and this last place would just be elided. This is = an enhancement only and can be easily explained on the fly. If it comes up = only one or two times I believe most speakers will remember it. I'm not= saying there isn't now a way to say, for instance, that you are playin= g chess. This is a more straightforward way to do it, though.=C2=A0

Adding to the end of a gismu is much = less of a change than changing it in the middle. When we were originally wo= rking on place structures for the gismu long ago we knew there would be som= e that needed to be expanded (and shortened).

. karis. /Karen Stein


On Wed, Jun 24, 202= 0, 13:17 <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
=
=20 =20 =20 =20
Jmive <mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu>: Jun 23 12:42P= M -0700

What gismu feel like they have incomplete place structures?
=C2=A0
The lujvo {ci'erkei} and {kelci'e} feel like they only exist becaus= e
{kelci} is missing a spot about what game is being played and/or its rules.=
The primary sense of the word seems to be about unstructured play, in the <= br> sense that a child plays with toys. But even this sense could be improved <= br> by a place for the game that's being played, as unstructured play can f= orm
unstructured games, usually of an imaginative sort, such as "cops and =
robbers" or "house".
=C2=A0
Proposed alternative definition:
=C2=A0
> x1 plays with toy/plaything/gamepiece x2 in game x3
=C2=A0
With this, {kelci} becomes like a recreational (rather than productive) version of {pilno}.
=C2=A0
Alterations to existing lujvo semantics: {nunkei} becomes "play sessio= n" or
a game in the sense meaning "match" -- the thing you're refer= ring to when
you say "good game". {samselkei} might mean a gaming console (suc= h that
s1=3Dk2); {dracyselkei} might mean a miniature, die, or LARP prop. I would =
argue that these are closer to the literal meanings of those lujvo to begin=
with, since {selkei} is defined as "toy", not "game".
Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.c= om>: Jun 24 02:32AM -0700

Or if you don't like existing lujvo you can just create new wor= ds instead of trying to redo existing words that others have already learne= d the way they are. This way it'd be less egocentric.
=20 You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for= this group. You can change your settings on the lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.

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