Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 17:01:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jmive <mcdonohe@mail.gvsu.edu>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Gismu in need of place structure extensions
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Ignoring the ad hominem, my reasoning is basic linguistic descriptivism.=20
There's nothing malgli about that. Do you have any specific criticisms of=
=20
specific arguments I make? Do you have a problem with my premises; if so,=
=20
which ones, and what do you see wrong with them?
On Tuesday, June 30, 2020 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-4 gleki.is...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Are you a native English speaker? Or some SAE language? I consider your=
=20
> reasoning malgli. Do you speak any East Asia languages?
>
> Em s=C3=A1bado, 27 de junho de 2020 20:52:04 UTC+3, Jmive escreveu:
>>
>> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:13:26 AM UTC-4 gleki.is...@gmail.com=20
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Usage can be incorrect. Take the story of dikyjvo. We don't want Lojban=
=20
>>> to become a language evolved from incorrect readings of gimste, do we.
>>
>> oicai malkamdrakembaupevyske. Words mean what people mean by them.=20
>> {dikyjvo} was an anomalous misnomer that was abandoned in favor of a bet=
ter=20
>> alternative that already existed in the language. No such alternative=20
>> exists for the gaming sense of {kelci}. If {kelci} must not be used to m=
ean=20
>> "x1 plays a game", then both {kelci'e} and {ci'erkei} are wrong and ther=
e=20
>> has been a gaping semantic hole in the language's lexicon for all of its=
=20
>> existence up to this point -- games are a cultural universal; there real=
ly=20
>> ought to be a gismu for that -- and this hole has been de facto filled b=
y=20
>> {kelci}, in spite of any supposed linguistic imperative that the word=20
>> absolutely must not be used in such a way.
>>
>> In such a case it is only sensible to bend to the will of the selbau and=
=20
>> define the word in the sense in which it is commonly used. Coining the=
=20
>> experimental "x1 plays game x2" would (by your reasoning) also be a poor=
=20
>> choice: you would have edit all the old texts and tell everyone to chang=
e=20
>> the way they {kelci}, replacing the previous "incorrect" usage with=20
>> {pleci}. By your reasoning, we're screwed either way: either all text bo=
th=20
>> past and future must zi'o out kelci3 wherever {kelci} is not being used =
in=20
>> the gaming-related sense, or all text both past and future must substitu=
te=20
>> in the newfangled {pleci} wherever {kelci} *is* being used in the=20
>> gaming-related sense.
>>
>> But again, the semantic change to existing texts could be minimized if w=
e=20
>> define kelci3 to also apply to playful activities that are not games as=
=20
>> such. Play is active, so play taking place logically necessitates that s=
ome=20
>> playful activity is taking place. Behold, both senses of the word are=20
>> encompassed, and no change to any existing text or usage is necessary.
>>
>

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Ignoring the ad hominem, my reasoning is basic linguistic descriptivism. Th=
ere's nothing malgli about that. Do you have any specific criticisms of spe=
cific arguments I make? Do you have a problem with my premises; if so, whic=
h ones, and what do you see wrong with them?<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tuesday, June 30, 2020 at 12:52:3=
1 PM UTC-4 gleki.is...@gmail.com wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,=
 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Are you a native English sp=
eaker? Or some SAE language? I consider your reasoning malgli. Do you speak=
 any East Asia languages?</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Em s=C3=A1bado, 27 de j=
unho de 2020 20:52:04 UTC+3, Jmive  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:13:26 AM UTC-4 <a rel=3D"nofollow=
">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Usage can be incorrect. Take the story of=
 dikyjvo. We don&#39;t want Lojban to become a language evolved from incorr=
ect readings of gimste, do we.</blockquote><div>oicai malkamdrakembaupevysk=
e. Words mean what people mean by them. {dikyjvo} was an anomalous misnomer=
 that was abandoned in favor of a better alternative that already existed i=
n the language. No such alternative exists for the gaming sense of {kelci}.=
 If {kelci} must not be used to mean &quot;x1 plays a game&quot;, then both=
 {kelci&#39;e} and {ci&#39;erkei} are wrong and there has been a gaping sem=
antic hole in the language&#39;s lexicon for all of its existence up to thi=
s point -- games are a cultural universal; there really ought to be a gismu=
 for that -- and this hole has been de facto filled by {kelci}, in spite of=
 any supposed linguistic imperative that the word absolutely must not be us=
ed in such a way.<br><br>In such a case it is only sensible to bend to the =
will of the selbau and define the word in the sense in which it is commonly=
 used. Coining the experimental &quot;x1 plays game x2&quot; would (by your=
 reasoning) also be a poor choice: you would have edit all the old texts an=
d tell everyone to change the way they {kelci}, replacing the previous &quo=
t;incorrect&quot; usage with {pleci}. By your reasoning, we&#39;re screwed =
either way: either all text both past and future must zi&#39;o out kelci3 w=
herever {kelci} is not being used in the gaming-related sense, or all text =
both past and future must substitute in the newfangled {pleci} wherever {ke=
lci} <i>is</i> being used in the gaming-related sense.<br><br>But again, th=
e semantic change to existing texts could be minimized if we define kelci3 =
to also apply to playful activities that are not games as such. Play is act=
ive, so play taking place logically necessitates that some playful activity=
 is taking place. Behold, both senses of the word are encompassed, and no c=
hange to any existing text or usage is necessary.<br></div></div></blockquo=
te></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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