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From: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Gismu in need of place structure extensions
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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 10:02:40 -0400
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On 6/25/2020 2:03 PM, deusexmadmachina@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 12:33:14 PM UTC-4, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> 
>     No. Precisely zi'o since the place structure would be different
>     changing semantics
> 
> This doesn't follow. The presence of a {zo'e} //in a bridi does not 
> imply the existence of an entity for which the bridi holds if the {zo'e} 
> is substituted for that entity. That's {da}. As an elliptical, {zo'e} 
> assumes the value of whatever sumti is contextually implied... and if 
> context implies that nothing fits in that place, that sumti is {zi'o}.

No. zi'o is not a possible value to fill an elided place.  It is 
grammatically a sumti, but semantically it is more than merely a 
null-value, because it changes the nature of the underlying 
relationship/predication.  To allow that would destroy one of the 
fundamental logical parts of the language, which is that even if a place 
is elided, it is still implicitly a part of the predication/relationship.

It was not originally a part of the language, but was added as a 
shortcut for people that did not want to create new words for restricted 
concepts.

"noda" is also not a plausible elidable value for a similar reason.

> Moreover, {kelci} is already sometimes used in the sense of playing a 
> game,

kelci as it is works whether one is playing a game or not.  "Playing a 
game" is usually a subset of "playing". (It might be argued that 
professional players of a game or sport are not really "playing" in the 
broad sense intended for kelci.  "Play" generally connotes recreational 
or non-serious activity in the broad sense, and strict rules and/or 
strong goal-directed (as in for money or other high stakes) really 
deviates from that broad sense and probably should have separate word(s) 
invoking the set of rules and/or the system of play and/or the goals.

in general, adding a place to a place structure is a restriction of 
meaning.  gismu were designed to be broad, with the intent that lujvo 
would be created to make such restrictions of meaning.

lojbab

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