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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e}
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 06:16:33 -0500
Message-ID: <2914956.R1SSoXq267@puma>
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On Sunday, November 22, 2020 5:07:48 PM EST Ilmen wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>=20
> I would like to ask you clarifications on the meaning of the cmavo
> {zo'e}, which is defined in the CLL at
> https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/index.html
> <https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/index.html> as meaning =E2=80=9Cthe obv=
ious
> value=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cwhatever I want it to mean but haven=E2=80=99t b=
othered to figure out,
> or figure out how to express=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> Let's consider the following three example sentences:
>=20
> =E2=80=A2 [A] {mi tirna zo'e}
> =E2=80=A2 [B] {mi tirna su'o da}
> =E2=80=A2 [C] {(da'o) mi tirna ko'a} (usage of a constant {ko'a} which ha=
sn't
> been assigned a value explicitly earlier)
>=20
> How does [A] semantically differ from [B] and [C]? (I suspect that the
> two latters ultimately mean the same thing.)
> How [A] should be represented in logical notation?
> {zo'e} cannot be a constant as it changes its referent(s) on each
> occurrence.

{mi tirna zo'e .i mi viska zo'e} is compatible with {mi tirna lo datka .i m=
i=20
viska lo gerku}, but {mi tirna su'o da .i mi viska su'o da} is not.

> The gloss =E2=80=9Cthe obvious value=E2=80=9D given in the CLL may lead o=
ne to consider
> =E2=80=9Cyou-know-what=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Csomething which you should be=
 able to identify
> easily=E2=80=9D as a possible meaning for {zo'e}, although the second wor=
ding
> =E2=80=9Cwhatever I want it to mean but haven=E2=80=99t bothered to figur=
e out, or
> figure out how to express=E2=80=9D doesn't seem to support it.
> That second wording doesn't imply that the addressee should be able to
> identify the referents of {zo'e}, but however it seems to imply that the
> speaker has a more precise idea on the referents than with a plain {su'o
> da}, but didn't manage or bother to lay out a more detailed description.
> Therefore, {su'o co'e} (=E2=80=9Csome thing(s) satisfying the contextuall=
y
> salient predicate=E2=80=9D) or =E2=80=9Csome certain thing(s) (known by t=
he speaker but
> not necessarily by the listener)=E2=80=9D may also qualify as candidate
> definitions for {zo'e}.
>=20
> What in your opinion should be a more precise definition of {zo'e}?

{zo'e} is equivalent to omission (which may require a FA to keep following=
=20
arguments in the same place), except in a relative clause or abstraction,=
=20
where omission may be equivalent to {ke'a} or {ce'u}. Whether there is an=
=20
obvious value is dependent on context and pragmatics.

=E2=80=94le trene cu catra le bomju poi xabju le mlana be le rendargu
=E2=80=94mi viska zo'e
Here {zo'e} could plausibly mean {le trene} or {le bomju} or {lo pixra be l=
e=20
fasnu}, but not {lo mlatu}. But if someone takes off my blindfold in a fiel=
d=20
where there are cats, and I say {mi viska zo'e}, {zo'e} likely means {lo=20
mlatu}.

Pierre
--=20
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci


--=20
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