Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::330 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::330;
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <bad4709c-1c05-d4f7-f56c-78089950fa4f@gmail.com> <2914956.R1SSoXq267@puma>
In-Reply-To: <2914956.R1SSoXq267@puma>
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 09:15:24 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkRpASKLMuhNdHnFwWUhBX+nw2tBWO=Pt9-Ny6zyaio_pw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e}
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e645f305b5032eeb"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -2.6
X-Spam_score_int: -25
X-Spam_bar: --

--000000000000e645f305b5032eeb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

le bomju ki'a .i  zo bomju cu xelfanva zoi gy "bum" gy xu la lojban la
gliban zi'o?

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 6:16 AM Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:

> On Sunday, November 22, 2020 5:07:48 PM EST Ilmen wrote:
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > I would like to ask you clarifications on the meaning of the cmavo
> > {zo'e}, which is defined in the CLL at
> > https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/index.html
> > <https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/index.html> as meaning =E2=80=9Cthe o=
bvious
> > value=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cwhatever I want it to mean but haven=E2=80=99t=
 bothered to figure out,
> > or figure out how to express=E2=80=9D.
> >
> > Let's consider the following three example sentences:
> >
> > =E2=80=A2 [A] {mi tirna zo'e}
> > =E2=80=A2 [B] {mi tirna su'o da}
> > =E2=80=A2 [C] {(da'o) mi tirna ko'a} (usage of a constant {ko'a} which =
hasn't
> > been assigned a value explicitly earlier)
> >
> > How does [A] semantically differ from [B] and [C]? (I suspect that the
> > two latters ultimately mean the same thing.)
> > How [A] should be represented in logical notation?
> > {zo'e} cannot be a constant as it changes its referent(s) on each
> > occurrence.
>
> {mi tirna zo'e .i mi viska zo'e} is compatible with {mi tirna lo datka .i
> mi
> viska lo gerku}, but {mi tirna su'o da .i mi viska su'o da} is not.
>
> > The gloss =E2=80=9Cthe obvious value=E2=80=9D given in the CLL may lead=
 one to consider
> > =E2=80=9Cyou-know-what=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Csomething which you should =
be able to identify
> > easily=E2=80=9D as a possible meaning for {zo'e}, although the second w=
ording
> > =E2=80=9Cwhatever I want it to mean but haven=E2=80=99t bothered to fig=
ure out, or
> > figure out how to express=E2=80=9D doesn't seem to support it.
> > That second wording doesn't imply that the addressee should be able to
> > identify the referents of {zo'e}, but however it seems to imply that th=
e
> > speaker has a more precise idea on the referents than with a plain {su'=
o
> > da}, but didn't manage or bother to lay out a more detailed description=
.
> > Therefore, {su'o co'e} (=E2=80=9Csome thing(s) satisfying the contextua=
lly
> > salient predicate=E2=80=9D) or =E2=80=9Csome certain thing(s) (known by=
 the speaker but
> > not necessarily by the listener)=E2=80=9D may also qualify as candidate
> > definitions for {zo'e}.
> >
> > What in your opinion should be a more precise definition of {zo'e}?
>
> {zo'e} is equivalent to omission (which may require a FA to keep followin=
g
> arguments in the same place), except in a relative clause or abstraction,
> where omission may be equivalent to {ke'a} or {ce'u}. Whether there is an
> obvious value is dependent on context and pragmatics.
>
> =E2=80=94le trene cu catra le bomju poi xabju le mlana be le rendargu
> =E2=80=94mi viska zo'e
> Here {zo'e} could plausibly mean {le trene} or {le bomju} or {lo pixra be
> le
> fasnu}, but not {lo mlatu}. But if someone takes off my blindfold in a
> field
> where there are cats, and I say {mi viska zo'e}, {zo'e} likely means {lo
> mlatu}.
>
> Pierre
> --
> li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
> li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/2914956.R1SSoXq267%40puma.
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
lojban/CAKOEKkRpASKLMuhNdHnFwWUhBX%2Bnw2tBWO%3DPt9-Ny6zyaio_pw%40mail.gmail=
.com.

--000000000000e645f305b5032eeb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">le bomju ki&#39;a .i=C2=A0 zo bomju cu xelfanva zoi gy &qu=
ot;bum&quot; gy xu la lojban la gliban zi&#39;o?</div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 6:1=
6 AM Pierre Abbat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@bezitopo.org">phma@bezitopo.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>On Sunday, November 22, 2020 5:07:48 PM EST Ilmen wrote:<br>
&gt; Hello everybody,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I would like to ask you clarifications on the meaning of the cmavo<br>
&gt; {zo&#39;e}, which is defined in the CLL at<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/index.html" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/index.html</a><br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/index.html" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/index.html</a>&=
gt; as meaning =E2=80=9Cthe obvious<br>
&gt; value=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cwhatever I want it to mean but haven=E2=80=99=
t bothered to figure out,<br>
&gt; or figure out how to express=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Let&#39;s consider the following three example sentences:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =E2=80=A2 [A] {mi tirna zo&#39;e}<br>
&gt; =E2=80=A2 [B] {mi tirna su&#39;o da}<br>
&gt; =E2=80=A2 [C] {(da&#39;o) mi tirna ko&#39;a} (usage of a constant {ko&=
#39;a} which hasn&#39;t<br>
&gt; been assigned a value explicitly earlier)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; How does [A] semantically differ from [B] and [C]? (I suspect that the=
<br>
&gt; two latters ultimately mean the same thing.)<br>
&gt; How [A] should be represented in logical notation?<br>
&gt; {zo&#39;e} cannot be a constant as it changes its referent(s) on each<=
br>
&gt; occurrence.<br>
<br>
{mi tirna zo&#39;e .i mi viska zo&#39;e} is compatible with {mi tirna lo da=
tka .i mi <br>
viska lo gerku}, but {mi tirna su&#39;o da .i mi viska su&#39;o da} is not.=
<br>
<br>
&gt; The gloss =E2=80=9Cthe obvious value=E2=80=9D given in the CLL may lea=
d one to consider<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9Cyou-know-what=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Csomething which you should=
 be able to identify<br>
&gt; easily=E2=80=9D as a possible meaning for {zo&#39;e}, although the sec=
ond wording<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9Cwhatever I want it to mean but haven=E2=80=99t bothered to fi=
gure out, or<br>
&gt; figure out how to express=E2=80=9D doesn&#39;t seem to support it.<br>
&gt; That second wording doesn&#39;t imply that the addressee should be abl=
e to<br>
&gt; identify the referents of {zo&#39;e}, but however it seems to imply th=
at the<br>
&gt; speaker has a more precise idea on the referents than with a plain {su=
&#39;o<br>
&gt; da}, but didn&#39;t manage or bother to lay out a more detailed descri=
ption.<br>
&gt; Therefore, {su&#39;o co&#39;e} (=E2=80=9Csome thing(s) satisfying the =
contextually<br>
&gt; salient predicate=E2=80=9D) or =E2=80=9Csome certain thing(s) (known b=
y the speaker but<br>
&gt; not necessarily by the listener)=E2=80=9D may also qualify as candidat=
e<br>
&gt; definitions for {zo&#39;e}.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; What in your opinion should be a more precise definition of {zo&#39;e}=
?<br>
<br>
{zo&#39;e} is equivalent to omission (which may require a FA to keep follow=
ing <br>
arguments in the same place), except in a relative clause or abstraction, <=
br>
where omission may be equivalent to {ke&#39;a} or {ce&#39;u}. Whether there=
 is an <br>
obvious value is dependent on context and pragmatics.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94le trene cu catra le bomju poi xabju le mlana be le rendargu<br>
=E2=80=94mi viska zo&#39;e<br>
Here {zo&#39;e} could plausibly mean {le trene} or {le bomju} or {lo pixra =
be le <br>
fasnu}, but not {lo mlatu}. But if someone takes off my blindfold in a fiel=
d <br>
where there are cats, and I say {mi viska zo&#39;e}, {zo&#39;e} likely mean=
s {lo <br>
mlatu}.<br>
<br>
Pierre<br>
-- <br>
li ze te&#39;a ci vu&#39;u ci bi&#39;e te&#39;a mu du<br>
li ci su&#39;i ze te&#39;a mu bi&#39;e vu&#39;u ci<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/lojban/2914956.R1SSoXq267%40puma" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/2914956.R1SSoXq267%40puma</=
a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/lojban/CAKOEKkRpASKLMuhNdHnFwWUhBX%2Bnw2tBWO%3DPt9-Ny6zyaio_pw%4=
0mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.goog=
le.com/d/msgid/lojban/CAKOEKkRpASKLMuhNdHnFwWUhBX%2Bnw2tBWO%3DPt9-Ny6zyaio_=
pw%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br />

--000000000000e645f305b5032eeb--