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Subject: Re: [lojban] Speaking about matters of degree
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From: Jacob Thomas Errington <jake@mail.jerrington.me>
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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 18:33:32 GMT
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coi

On 2020-12-22 16:10, mezohe wrote:

> Trying to focus the question on the degree, you could use {kau}, perhaps
> with a relative clause to say it's a high degree:
>
>    ri'a ma lo nenri cu xo kau va'e co lenku
>    .i ri'a ma lo nenri cu me ma kau [noi barda] va'e co lenku
>    .i ri'a ma ma kau [noi barda] cu ni lo nenri cu lenku
>    .i ri'a ma lo nenri se la'u ma kau [noi barda] cu lenku
>
> where {broda ti ta ma kau} would expand to something like {broda ti ta Q
> poi'i broda ti ta ke'a}, substituting your favourite quantifier for Q.
>
> You might notice that this use seems distinct from how la tsani uses
> {kau} in the other thread. Known issue. Related reading from 2015:
>
> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/UserWiki:Ilmen/lo_smuni_be_zo_kau

This is an interesting use of kau. I used to staunchly oppose any use of=20
kau outside of abstractions such as du'u, ka, and si'o (the 'relational'=20
ones). Nowadays I think I care a bit less. (But as I'll explain, I think=20
that this use has a hidden du'u abstraction in it.) This use in=20
particular seems especially _un_objectionable! I can tell exactly what=20
it means, so there maybe there is a systematic way to interpret=20
(top-level) statements containing indirect questions.

Did I say statement? Actually, the example is a _question_ so let's=20
concentrate on that.

I think we can understand a question as a command for an answer. Let's=20
see how we might interpret a simple question.

 =C2=A0 .i ma broda
 =C2=A0 .i ko mi jungau lo du'u makau broda

Seems reasonable enough to me, so let's apply this rule to the first=20
example and see what happens.

 =C2=A0 .i ri'a ma lo nenri cu xo kau va'e co lenku
 =C2=A0 .i ko mi jungau lo du'u ri'a makau lo nenri cu xo kau va'e co lenku

Okay, but does this mean the right thing? One thing is for sure: now it=20
looks like we're asking two questions instead of one. But maybe that's=20
what's happening when we say something like "why is it so cold in here?"=20
Is it similar to asking how cold it is in here + an explanation for it=20
being that cold? I think what makes this make sense is that we _already_=20
know how cold it is, so we're really only asking for a reason, but we=20
phrase it as a question for emphasis. Another way to see this is as if=20
we were pretending we didn't know how cold it is because we're surprised=20
that it's colder than we expected.

mezohe's general expansion of indirect questions gives something like=20
"as it is":

 =C2=A0 .i lenku xo kau va'e
 =C2=A0 It's as cold as it is.

This makes perfect sense as a framework for understanding {.i ri'a ma=20
lenku xo kau va'e} as "Why is it as cold as it is?" -> "Why it is so cold?"=
.

I wonder if there's some underlying principle that unifies the "as it=20
is" interpretation with my interpretation. I think there is, and I think=20
it has to do with the idea that this indirect question in a question is=20
used to create a contrast between reality and our expectation of it.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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