Envelope-to: lojban-list-archive@lojban.org
Delivery-date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 23:34:50 -0800
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 23:29:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Corbin Simpson <mostawesomedude@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <517f4985-4f82-495b-9b07-e03210186403n@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <e0a16e64-8f52-e576-af76-f895ff5ab220@gmail.com>
References: <bad4709c-1c05-d4f7-f56c-78089950fa4f@gmail.com>
 <2914956.R1SSoXq267@puma>
 <CAKOEKkRpASKLMuhNdHnFwWUhBX+nw2tBWO=Pt9-Ny6zyaio_pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3057250.gkAYTAapcS@puma>
 <86v9djg26p.fsf@cmarib.ramside>
 <e0a16e64-8f52-e576-af76-f895ff5ab220@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e}
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_17006_977981221.1609313346217"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -2.5
X-Spam_score_int: -24
X-Spam_bar: --

------=_Part_17006_977981221.1609313346217
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_17007_1518956409.1609313346217"

------=_Part_17007_1518956409.1609313346217
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

u'i coi

You've buried the lede somewhat. There probably *aren't* context-free=20
formal definitions possible for {zo'e}, because speakers usually intend=20
either the semantics of {zi'o} (pretend that the place doesn't exist) or=20
{su'o da} (something fills the place but it is irrelevant; it does=20
logically exist, though!) The former is fulfilled when zero or more objects=
=20
match, but the latter requires at least one object to match.

As a basic example, in the utterance {mi vecnu zo'e}, am I asserting that=
=20
at least one sale takes place? (Ignoring temporal issues.)

On Thursday, December 3, 2020 at 9:32:29 AM UTC-8 Ilmen wrote:

>
> Le 03/12/2020 =C3=A0 01:31, scope845h...@icebubble.org a =C3=A9crit :
> > Formal definitions of cmavo can be found on the BPFK pages of the Wiki
> > at lojban.org. When I say "formal" definitions, I mean that their
> > meanings are defined very specifially, typically using Lojban.
>
> I'm not seeing any formal definition (i.e. substitutional definition) at=
=20
>
> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Grammatical_Pro-sumti#cmavo:_zo=
.27e_.28KOhA7.29=20
> <
> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Grammatical_Pro-sumti#cmavo:_zo=
.27e_.28KOhA7.29
> >.
>
> =E2=80=94Ilmen.
>
>
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
lojban/517f4985-4f82-495b-9b07-e03210186403n%40googlegroups.com.

------=_Part_17007_1518956409.1609313346217
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>u'i coi</div><div><br></div><div>You've buried the lede somewhat. Ther=
e probably *aren't* context-free formal definitions possible for {zo'e}, be=
cause speakers usually intend either the semantics of {zi'o} (pretend that =
the place doesn't exist) or {su'o da} (something fills the place but it is =
irrelevant; it does logically exist, though!) The former is fulfilled when =
zero or more objects match, but the latter requires at least one object to =
match.</div><div><br></div><div>As a basic example, in the utterance {mi ve=
cnu zo'e}, am I asserting that at least one sale takes place? (Ignoring tem=
poral issues.)<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Thursday, December 3, 2020 at 9:32:29 AM UTC-8 Ilmen =
wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0=
.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Le 03/12/2020 =C3=A0 01:31, <a href data-email-masked rel=3D"nofollow">=
scope845h...@icebubble.org</a> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
<br>&gt; Formal definitions of cmavo can be found on the BPFK pages of the =
Wiki
<br>&gt; at <a href=3D"http://lojban.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow=
" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttp:/=
/lojban.org&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1609399224236000&amp;usg=3DAFQjCNE=
WNLx-BCG_UQihn5DVDNZsuvsGRA">lojban.org</a>.  When I say &quot;formal&quot;=
 definitions, I mean that their
<br>&gt; meanings are defined very specifially, typically using Lojban.
<br>
<br>I&#39;m not seeing any formal definition (i.e. substitutional definitio=
n) at=20
<br><a href=3D"https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Grammatical_Pro-su=
mti#cmavo:_zo.27e_.28KOhA7.29" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-safe=
redirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://mw.lojban=
.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Grammatical_Pro-sumti%23cmavo:_zo.27e_.28KOhA7.29&=
amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1609399224236000&amp;usg=3DAFQjCNEhYizUMLeRzJS=
gpDXnkcBTZW9qfQ">https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Grammatical_Pro-=
sumti#cmavo:_zo.27e_.28KOhA7.29</a>=20
<br>&lt;<a href=3D"https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Grammatical_Pr=
o-sumti#cmavo:_zo.27e_.28KOhA7.29" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-=
saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://mw.lo=
jban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Grammatical_Pro-sumti%23cmavo:_zo.27e_.28KOhA7=
.29&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1609399224236000&amp;usg=3DAFQjCNEhYizUMLe=
RzJSgpDXnkcBTZW9qfQ">https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Grammatical_=
Pro-sumti#cmavo:_zo.27e_.28KOhA7.29</a>&gt;.
<br>
<br>=E2=80=94Ilmen.
<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/lojban/517f4985-4f82-495b-9b07-e03210186403n%40googlegroups.com?=
utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/l=
ojban/517f4985-4f82-495b-9b07-e03210186403n%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br />

------=_Part_17007_1518956409.1609313346217--

------=_Part_17006_977981221.1609313346217--