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From: "Hugh O'Byrne" <hobyrne@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 00:52:58 -0500
Message-ID: <CAEYHNDuJWqzSX2BJrqrjbD3u4AU8OptXyGsybg0Btt4ea5RvUw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Reasoning by analogy
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Oh, man.  It's like walking past an expensive restaurant, and getting the
smell of... oh, just sumptuous.  I love it, but all I can do is smell it.
I don't have the brainpower to be in the circle, but I absolutely love that
this kind of discussion happens, and it's fun even to be on the periphery
catching a whiff.

My respect to Lojban enthusiasts and scholars.  And my thanks, for the
opportunity to vicariously experience such intellectual sport!

Hugh.


On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 7:40 PM <scope845hlang343jbo@icebubble.org> wrote:

> Jacob Thomas Errington <jake@mail.jerrington.me> writes:
>
> > You can put fi'o tags in more places than that. Try these in a parser.
> >
> > .i do jamfu cadzu cilre kakne .iseni'ibo fi'o simsa la'e di'u do xance
> > cadzu cilre kakne
>
> Hm.  I hadn't thought of using a {fi'o} tag on a sumti of selma'o KOhA.
>
> > .i do jamfu co'e .i fi'o simsa bo do xance co'e
>
> I don't think that's grammatical.  jufra can only be connected by simple
> tags, not full-fledged sumti tcita.  Otherwise, I could simply say:
>
>   do ka'e cilre fi lonu do cadzu fi lo jamfu
>   .i fi'o simsa la'edi'u fe'u je semu'i bo
>   do ka'e cilre fu lo xego'i fi lonu do cadzu fi lo xance
>
> That would be nice and clean (and could further be simplified by use of
> {go'i}, et al.), but the grammar doesn't allow it. .uu
>
> > The usual strategy to interpret a {fi'o} clause is to rearrange to
> > make its selbri the top-level selbri. For example, I would interpret
> > {mi fi'o simsa do se bangu lo lojbo} as
> >
> >   mi do simsa lo ka lo lojbo cu bangu
> >   + a claim that {mi se bangu lo lojbo}
>
> No, I don't think that's how modal tags are interpreted.  At least
> according to CLL, a modal tag adds an additional place to the underlying
> selbri, expressing something that fills the x1 place of the {BAI} or
> {FIhO} construct.  Your interpretation of that sentence would properly
> be expressed: {lo me mi be fi'o simsa do me'u cu se bangu lo lojbo}.
> Adding a modal tag to a sumti is not equivalent to using that tag in a
> non-logical connection between sentences.
>
> > What strikes me about that is that it's saying that the similarity
> > between the possibility of learning to walk on your hands and on your
> > feet is implied by the possibility of learning to walk on your
> > feet.
>
> Ah, yes, you have a point, there.  Implication of similarity wasn't the
> meaning I'd intended.  My mistake.  This could be fixed using prophor:
>
>     fi'o simsa la'edi'e fe'u do ka'e cilre fi lonu do cadzu fi lo jamfu
>     .iseni'ibo do ka'e cilre fu lo xego'i fi lonu do cadzu fi lo xance
>
> > An analogy is not an implication. It's an observed similarly that is
> > used to make inferences. So the order of the bridi operators seems a
> > bit backwards in the fi'o examples.
>
> Exactly!  That's the whole idea of reasoning by analogy: A and B both
> have property X, and A has property Y, therefore (by analogy), B has
> property Y.  As an example: Ducks and geese both have webbed feet.
> Ducks have feathers.  Therefore, geese have feathers.  It's not logical.
> It's reasoning by analogy.  It's illogical.  Yet it's quintessentially
> human, and very common in natural language usage.
>
> > .i lo xance lo jamfu cu simsa lo ka kakne co cadzu fi ce'u kei .e ja'e
> > bo lo ka makau xe cilre co cadzu fi ce'u
> > Hands and feet are similar in that one can walk on them, and therefore
> > similar in what way one can learn to walk on them.
>
> I think you're using {co} incorrectly.  The place structure of {broda co
> brode} is that of {broda}, not that of {brode}.  Using {ni'i} instead of
> {ja'e}, I might express your example as:
>
>   .i lo xance lo jamfu cu simsa lo ka kakne cadzu fi ce'u kei
>   .e ni'i bo lo ka cilre be fu makau cadzu fi ce'u
>
> Or, using {co}:
>
>   .i lo xance lo jamfu cu simsa lo ka cadzu co kakne fi ce'u kei
>   .e ni'i bo lo ka cadzu co cilre be fu makau fi ce'u
>
> >   lo najnimre lo plise cu simsa lo ka farvi bu'u lo tricu kei .e ja'e
> > bo lo ka makau tadji co kurji
>
> I think you mean {be}, not {bu'u}:
>
>   lo najnimre lo plise cu simsa lo ka farvi be lo tricu kei .e
>   ja'e ja seni'i bo lo ka makau kurji tadji
>
> >   Oranges and apples are similar in that they grow in trees, and
> > therefore similar in what way one cares for them.
>
> --
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Oh, man.=C2=A0 It&#39;s like walking past an expensive res=
taurant, and getting the smell of... oh, just sumptuous.=C2=A0 I love it, b=
ut all I can do is smell it.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t have the brainpower to be in=
 the circle, but I absolutely love that this kind of discussion happens, an=
d it&#39;s fun even to be on the periphery catching a whiff.<div><br></div>=
<div>My respect to Lojban enthusiasts and scholars.=C2=A0 And my thanks, fo=
r the opportunity to vicariously experience such intellectual sport!</div><=
div><br></div><div>Hugh.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 7:40 PM=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scope845hlang343jbo@icebubble.org">scope845hlang343j=
bo@icebubble.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">Jacob Thomas Errington &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jake@mail.jerr=
ington.me" target=3D"_blank">jake@mail.jerrington.me</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; You can put fi&#39;o tags in more places than that. Try these in a par=
ser.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; .i do jamfu cadzu cilre kakne .iseni&#39;ibo fi&#39;o simsa la&#39;e d=
i&#39;u do xance<br>
&gt; cadzu cilre kakne<br>
<br>
Hm.=C2=A0 I hadn&#39;t thought of using a {fi&#39;o} tag on a sumti of selm=
a&#39;o KOhA.<br>
<br>
&gt; .i do jamfu co&#39;e .i fi&#39;o simsa bo do xance co&#39;e<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that&#39;s grammatical.=C2=A0 jufra can only be connected=
 by simple<br>
tags, not full-fledged sumti tcita.=C2=A0 Otherwise, I could simply say:<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 do ka&#39;e cilre fi lonu do cadzu fi lo jamfu<br>
=C2=A0 .i fi&#39;o simsa la&#39;edi&#39;u fe&#39;u je semu&#39;i bo<br>
=C2=A0 do ka&#39;e cilre fu lo xego&#39;i fi lonu do cadzu fi lo xance<br>
<br>
That would be nice and clean (and could further be simplified by use of<br>
{go&#39;i}, et al.), but the grammar doesn&#39;t allow it. .uu<br>
<br>
&gt; The usual strategy to interpret a {fi&#39;o} clause is to rearrange to=
<br>
&gt; make its selbri the top-level selbri. For example, I would interpret<b=
r>
&gt; {mi fi&#39;o simsa do se bangu lo lojbo} as<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 mi do simsa lo ka lo lojbo cu bangu<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 + a claim that {mi se bangu lo lojbo}<br>
<br>
No, I don&#39;t think that&#39;s how modal tags are interpreted.=C2=A0 At l=
east<br>
according to CLL, a modal tag adds an additional place to the underlying<br=
>
selbri, expressing something that fills the x1 place of the {BAI} or<br>
{FIhO} construct.=C2=A0 Your interpretation of that sentence would properly=
<br>
be expressed: {lo me mi be fi&#39;o simsa do me&#39;u cu se bangu lo lojbo}=
.<br>
Adding a modal tag to a sumti is not equivalent to using that tag in a<br>
non-logical connection between sentences.<br>
<br>
&gt; What strikes me about that is that it&#39;s saying that the similarity=
<br>
&gt; between the possibility of learning to walk on your hands and on your<=
br>
&gt; feet is implied by the possibility of learning to walk on your<br>
&gt; feet.<br>
<br>
Ah, yes, you have a point, there.=C2=A0 Implication of similarity wasn&#39;=
t the<br>
meaning I&#39;d intended.=C2=A0 My mistake.=C2=A0 This could be fixed using=
 prophor:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fi&#39;o simsa la&#39;edi&#39;e fe&#39;u do ka&#39;e cilre fi=
 lonu do cadzu fi lo jamfu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .iseni&#39;ibo do ka&#39;e cilre fu lo xego&#39;i fi lonu do =
cadzu fi lo xance<br>
<br>
&gt; An analogy is not an implication. It&#39;s an observed similarly that =
is<br>
&gt; used to make inferences. So the order of the bridi operators seems a<b=
r>
&gt; bit backwards in the fi&#39;o examples.<br>
<br>
Exactly!=C2=A0 That&#39;s the whole idea of reasoning by analogy: A and B b=
oth<br>
have property X, and A has property Y, therefore (by analogy), B has<br>
property Y.=C2=A0 As an example: Ducks and geese both have webbed feet.<br>
Ducks have feathers.=C2=A0 Therefore, geese have feathers.=C2=A0 It&#39;s n=
ot logical.<br>
It&#39;s reasoning by analogy.=C2=A0 It&#39;s illogical.=C2=A0 Yet it&#39;s=
 quintessentially<br>
human, and very common in natural language usage.<br>
<br>
&gt; .i lo xance lo jamfu cu simsa lo ka kakne co cadzu fi ce&#39;u kei .e =
ja&#39;e<br>
&gt; bo lo ka makau xe cilre co cadzu fi ce&#39;u<br>
&gt; Hands and feet are similar in that one can walk on them, and therefore=
<br>
&gt; similar in what way one can learn to walk on them.<br>
<br>
I think you&#39;re using {co} incorrectly.=C2=A0 The place structure of {br=
oda co<br>
brode} is that of {broda}, not that of {brode}.=C2=A0 Using {ni&#39;i} inst=
ead of<br>
{ja&#39;e}, I might express your example as:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 .i lo xance lo jamfu cu simsa lo ka kakne cadzu fi ce&#39;u kei<br>
=C2=A0 .e ni&#39;i bo lo ka cilre be fu makau cadzu fi ce&#39;u<br>
<br>
Or, using {co}:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 .i lo xance lo jamfu cu simsa lo ka cadzu co kakne fi ce&#39;u kei<b=
r>
=C2=A0 .e ni&#39;i bo lo ka cadzu co cilre be fu makau fi ce&#39;u<br>
<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 lo najnimre lo plise cu simsa lo ka farvi bu&#39;u lo tricu kei=
 .e ja&#39;e<br>
&gt; bo lo ka makau tadji co kurji<br>
<br>
I think you mean {be}, not {bu&#39;u}:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 lo najnimre lo plise cu simsa lo ka farvi be lo tricu kei .e<br>
=C2=A0 ja&#39;e ja seni&#39;i bo lo ka makau kurji tadji<br>
<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 Oranges and apples are similar in that they grow in trees, and<=
br>
&gt; therefore similar in what way one cares for them.<br>
<br>
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ib.ramside</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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