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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {zo'e}
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Note that {lo na} implicitly summons and invokes the Law of Excluded 
Middle, as do many of these {no}/{na} rules. {lo na nanmu} first imagines 
that there exists a collection of everything (questionable; is it a set?), 
as well as a collection of all nanmu1 (must exist, by definition of 
relations; in fact, it's a set!), and then takes the difference between 
those collections (which might not be a set), and finally performs a 
choice, requiring the full Axiom of Choice (because the collection is so 
big!), to select something. The selection might be impredicative; how can 
you show that the "everything" which is being ranged over is *actually* 
being considered for selection?
On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 8:23:12 AM UTC-8 Adam Lopresto wrote:

> {lo na nanmu} is still a thing (that is, it's still compatible with {su'o 
> da} and not with {no da}), so there's no problem with {zo'e} reflecting it. 
> It's a thing that doesn't {nanmu}, but it still has to be something. {lo na 
> nanmu} successfully killed the Witch-King of Angmar. 
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:40 PM <scope845h...@icebubble.org> wrote:
>
>> Jacob Thomas Errington <ja...@mail.jerrington.me> writes:
>>
>> > {mi viska noda} is the same as {mi na viska su'o da}, so if what
>> > you're saying is true, then we can't know except through context
>> > whether a statement is affirmative or negative. Instead, use the
>> > observative {na viska}.
>> >
>> > A zo'e-like word (e.g. do'e, xo'e, etc.) shouln't be able to stand for
>> > something that makes the claim go from affirmative to negative or vice
>> > versa.
>>
>> If we use your interpretation, then {mi viska zo'e} could mean {mi viska
>> lo nanmu} but could not mean {mi viska lo na nanmu}.  It seems, to me,
>> that {lo na nanmu} would be a perfectly legitimate meaning for {zo'e}.
>>
>> zo do'e ki'a
>>
>> -- 
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> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/86sg7ehrgv.fsf%40cmarib.ramside.
>>
>

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<div>Note that {lo na} implicitly summons and invokes the Law of Excluded M=
iddle, as do many of these {no}/{na} rules. {lo na nanmu} first imagines th=
at there exists a collection of everything (questionable; is it a set?), as=
 well as a collection of all nanmu1 (must exist, by definition of relations=
; in fact, it's a set!), and then takes the difference between those collec=
tions (which might not be a set), and finally performs a choice, requiring =
the full Axiom of Choice (because the collection is so big!), to select som=
ething. The selection might be impredicative; how can you show that the "ev=
erything" which is being ranged over is *actually* being considered for sel=
ection?</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 8:23:12 AM UTC-8 Adam Lopresto wrote:<br/=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>{lo na nanmu} is still a thing (that is, it&#39;s still compatible=C2=A0wi=
th {su&#39;o da} and not with {no da}), so there&#39;s no problem with {zo&=
#39;e} reflecting it. It&#39;s a thing that doesn&#39;t {nanmu}, but it sti=
ll has to be something. {lo na nanmu} successfully killed the Witch-King of=
 Angmar.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:40 =
PM &lt;<a href data-email-masked rel=3D"nofollow">scope845h...@icebubble.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Jacob Thomas Errington &lt;<a href data-e=
mail-masked rel=3D"nofollow">ja...@mail.jerrington.me</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; {mi viska noda} is the same as {mi na viska su&#39;o da}, so if what<b=
r>
&gt; you&#39;re saying is true, then we can&#39;t know except through conte=
xt<br>
&gt; whether a statement is affirmative or negative. Instead, use the<br>
&gt; observative {na viska}.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A zo&#39;e-like word (e.g. do&#39;e, xo&#39;e, etc.) shouln&#39;t be a=
ble to stand for<br>
&gt; something that makes the claim go from affirmative to negative or vice=
<br>
&gt; versa.<br>
<br>
If we use your interpretation, then {mi viska zo&#39;e} could mean {mi visk=
a<br>
lo nanmu} but could not mean {mi viska lo na nanmu}.=C2=A0 It seems, to me,=
<br>
that {lo na nanmu} would be a perfectly legitimate meaning for {zo&#39;e}.<=
br>
<br>
zo do&#39;e ki&#39;a<br>
<br></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">
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s.com</a>.<br></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/lojban/86sg7ehrgv.fsf%40cmarib.ramside" rel=3D"noreferrer nofoll=
ow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=
=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/86sg7ehrgv.fsf%2540c=
marib.ramside&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1610216273669000&amp;usg=3DAFQjC=
NHGJraXXeBc-CjT_IA4txwJ7gxJHg">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/86s=
g7ehrgv.fsf%40cmarib.ramside</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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