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From: Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:46:42 -0600
Message-ID: <CABM8VqdtS=z1xRVv+C2Uy5Sk-Cn+3KqcPq=woGNVfYSw0N7L2g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {zo'e}
To: Lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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I don't think it's anywhere near that complicated. {lo na nanmu} just
summons those things that satisfy {na nanmu}. If I spelled it {narnanmu}
would that make it more obvious that it's not doing anything hugely
elaborate?

On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 12:32 PM Corbin Simpson <mostawesomedude@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Note that {lo na} implicitly summons and invokes the Law of Excluded
> Middle, as do many of these {no}/{na} rules. {lo na nanmu} first imagines
> that there exists a collection of everything (questionable; is it a set?),
> as well as a collection of all nanmu1 (must exist, by definition of
> relations; in fact, it's a set!), and then takes the difference between
> those collections (which might not be a set), and finally performs a
> choice, requiring the full Axiom of Choice (because the collection is so
> big!), to select something. The selection might be impredicative; how can
> you show that the "everything" which is being ranged over is *actually*
> being considered for selection?
> On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 8:23:12 AM UTC-8 Adam Lopresto wrote:
>
>> {lo na nanmu} is still a thing (that is, it's still compatible with {su'o
>> da} and not with {no da}), so there's no problem with {zo'e} reflecting it.
>> It's a thing that doesn't {nanmu}, but it still has to be something. {lo na
>> nanmu} successfully killed the Witch-King of Angmar.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:40 PM <scope845h...@icebubble.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Jacob Thomas Errington <ja...@mail.jerrington.me> writes:
>>>
>>> > {mi viska noda} is the same as {mi na viska su'o da}, so if what
>>> > you're saying is true, then we can't know except through context
>>> > whether a statement is affirmative or negative. Instead, use the
>>> > observative {na viska}.
>>> >
>>> > A zo'e-like word (e.g. do'e, xo'e, etc.) shouln't be able to stand for
>>> > something that makes the claim go from affirmative to negative or vice
>>> > versa.
>>>
>>> If we use your interpretation, then {mi viska zo'e} could mean {mi viska
>>> lo nanmu} but could not mean {mi viska lo na nanmu}.  It seems, to me,
>>> that {lo na nanmu} would be a perfectly legitimate meaning for {zo'e}.
>>>
>>> zo do'e ki'a
>>>
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>>> .
>>>
>> --
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t think it&#39;s anywhere near that complicated.=
 {lo na nanmu} just summons those things that satisfy {na nanmu}. If I spel=
led it {narnanmu} would that make it more obvious that it&#39;s not doing a=
nything hugely elaborate?=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 12:32 PM Corbin Simps=
on &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mostawesomedude@gmail.com">mostawesomedude@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div>Note that {lo na} implicitly summons and invokes the Law of Excluded=
 Middle, as do many of these {no}/{na} rules. {lo na nanmu} first imagines =
that there exists a collection of everything (questionable; is it a set?), =
as well as a collection of all nanmu1 (must exist, by definition of relatio=
ns; in fact, it&#39;s a set!), and then takes the difference between those =
collections (which might not be a set), and finally performs a choice, requ=
iring the full Axiom of Choice (because the collection is so big!), to sele=
ct something. The selection might be impredicative; how can you show that t=
he &quot;everything&quot; which is being ranged over is *actually* being co=
nsidered for selection?</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 8:23:12 AM UTC-8 Adam Lop=
resto wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">{lo na nanmu} is still a thing (that is, it&#39;s still compa=
tible=C2=A0with {su&#39;o da} and not with {no da}), so there&#39;s no prob=
lem with {zo&#39;e} reflecting it. It&#39;s a thing that doesn&#39;t {nanmu=
}, but it still has to be something. {lo na nanmu} successfully killed the =
Witch-King of Angmar.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 6, =
2021 at 6:40 PM &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">scope845h...@icebubble.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">Jacob Thomas Errington &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">ja..=
.@mail.jerrington.me</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; {mi viska noda} is the same as {mi na viska su&#39;o da}, so if what<b=
r>
&gt; you&#39;re saying is true, then we can&#39;t know except through conte=
xt<br>
&gt; whether a statement is affirmative or negative. Instead, use the<br>
&gt; observative {na viska}.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A zo&#39;e-like word (e.g. do&#39;e, xo&#39;e, etc.) shouln&#39;t be a=
ble to stand for<br>
&gt; something that makes the claim go from affirmative to negative or vice=
<br>
&gt; versa.<br>
<br>
If we use your interpretation, then {mi viska zo&#39;e} could mean {mi visk=
a<br>
lo nanmu} but could not mean {mi viska lo na nanmu}.=C2=A0 It seems, to me,=
<br>
that {lo na nanmu} would be a perfectly legitimate meaning for {zo&#39;e}.<=
br>
<br>
zo do&#39;e ki&#39;a<br>
<br></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">
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ote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex">
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/lojban/86sg7ehrgv.fsf%40cmarib.ramside" rel=3D"noreferrer nofoll=
ow" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/86sg7ehrgv.f=
sf%40cmarib.ramside</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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