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Subject: Re: [lojban] Second-order quantification has uses
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On 2021-01-13 20:59, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:

> On 1/8/21 1:17 PM, Corbin Simpson wrote:
>> coi
>>
>> I wanted to follow up on a point of la tsani's from the thread=20
>> "Reasoning by analogy". The point is raised that perhaps {bu'a} is=20
>> not very useful.
>
> I think I recall (the?) one time I felt a use for {bu'a}, but I did=20
> have to have it explained to me that {ro bu'a zo'u} doesn't mean "for=20
> all things that bu'a" but rather "for all predicates bu'a," which is=20
> an exception to the usual rules=E2=80=94precisely because otherwise it's =
hard=20
> to use {bu'a}!
>
>
> Esther 8:1: "For she (Esther) had told him (Ahasuerus) what he=20
> (Mordecai) was to her [viz. her cousin]"
>
>
> .i .ebu pu cusku fi .abu fe lo du'u my bu'akau .ebu
>
>
> I guess it doesn't need the quantification after all (this originally=20
> occurred to me before the invention of {kau}, I think.)=C2=A0 Does there=
=20
> need to be some quantification anyway, though?=C2=A0 To mean some=20
> particular implied (ellipsized) relationship, and not some random one=20
> like {viska} or {te djuno} or something?
>
>
For these kinds of "you're free to be as you are" type of statements, I=20
actually think there's a connection to indirect questions. In a sense,=20
there is a hidden indirect question when we say "as you are", since it=20
appears in a subclause and we're not actually _saying_ what "as you are"=20
is supposed to be. It's kind of like saying "tell me who I am".


So in Lojban:

.i do zifre lo ka mokau


Or to rephrase your example:

.i .ebu pu cusku fi .abu fe lo du'u my .ebu mokau


.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8=
">
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  <body>
    <p>On 2021-01-13 20:59, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"
      cite=3D"mid:b11c8380-e0e5-b4bd-6f35-fcbc1b1364e9@kli.org">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
-8">
      <style id=3D"bidiui-paragraph-margins" type=3D"text/css">body p { mar=
gin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt; }</style>
      <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 1/8/21 1:17 PM, Corbin Simpson
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite"
        cite=3D"mid:fe44283d-dd08-432e-8875-0abd7dab48a2n@googlegroups.com"=
>
        <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html;
          charset=3DUTF-8">
        <div>coi</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I wanted to follow up on a point of la tsani's from the
          thread "Reasoning by analogy". The point is raised that
          perhaps {bu'a} is not very useful.<br>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <p>I think I recall (the?) one time I felt a use for {bu'a}, but I
        did have to have it explained to me that {ro bu'a zo'u} doesn't
        mean "for all things that bu'a" but rather "for all predicates
        bu'a," which is an exception to the usual rules=E2=80=94precisely
        because otherwise it's hard to use {bu'a}!</p>
      <p><br>
      </p>
      <p>Esther 8:1: "For she (Esther) had told him (Ahasuerus) what he
        (Mordecai) was to her [viz. her cousin]"</p>
      <p><br>
      </p>
      <p>.i .ebu pu cusku fi .abu fe lo du'u my bu'akau .ebu</p>
      <p><br>
      </p>
      <p>I guess it doesn't need the quantification after all (this
        originally occurred to me before the invention of {kau}, I
        think.)=C2=A0 Does there need to be some quantification anyway,
        though?=C2=A0 To mean some particular implied (ellipsized)
        relationship, and not some random one like {viska} or {te djuno}
        or something?</p>
      <p><br>
      </p>
    </blockquote>
    <p>For these kinds of "you're free to be as you are" type of
      statements, I actually think there's a connection to indirect
      questions. In a sense, there is a hidden indirect question when we
      say "as you are", since it appears in a subclause and we're not
      actually _saying_ what "as you are" is supposed to be. It's kind
      of like saying "tell me who I am".</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>So in Lojban:</p>
    <p>.i do zifre lo ka mokau</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Or to rephrase your example:</p>
    <p>.i .ebu pu cusku fi .abu fe lo du'u my .ebu mokau</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>.i mi'e la tsani mu'o<br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

<p></p>

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