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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Reasoning by analogy
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From: Jacob Thomas Errington <jake@mail.jerrington.me>
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On 2021-01-13 16:51, scope845hlang343jbo@icebubble.org wrote:
> I'm looking at the EBNF grammar in the CLL, but not seeing it.  Are you
> using the rule statement-2_13?  Odd... the on-line version of the CLL
> contains the EBNF, but not the YACC grammar.  According to the YACC:
>
> lexer_K_955             :  lexer_K_711  I_root_956  BO_508
>                          |  lexer_K_711  I_root_956  simple_tag_971  BO_5=
08
>                          ;
>
> The "simple_tag_971" doesn't permit {fi'o} clauses.  Are you using
> grammar.300?
>
I just use camxes. Perhaps the CLL doesn't allow fi'o clauses as=20
sentence connectives due to a limitation in the parser (it would require=20
too much lookahead, maybe?) Camxes essentially allows unlimited lookahead.

Anyway, there's no compelling reason that it should be forbidden, if we=20
believe that fi'o clauses should be equivalent to BAI tags.

>> It turns out that in the decades since the CLL was published that the
>> language has continued to evolve and that interpretations have been
>> refined. The CLL interpretation for fi'o falls a bit flat because it
>> doesn't explain the connection between this new place and the old
>> selbri, whereas the 'new' interpretation is for the most part
>> compatible with the old one (gives essentially the same
>> interpretations) while being more precise.
> The CLL's description of the meaning of {fi'o} clauses isn't expressed
> particularly clearly, but the meaning expressed is pretty clear.  The
> meaning of a {fi'o} clause is determined the same way as for BAI cmavo:
> it specifies something which fills the x1 place of the BAI or FIhO
> clause.  Tenses are interpereted slightly differently (exchanging the x1
> and x2 places) for historical reasons.  What is this "new", modern,
> interpretation of {fi'o}, as you understand it?

Here's the explanation I gave in my message on 2 January:

    The usual strategy to interpret a {fi'o} clause is to rearrange to
    make its selbri the top-level selbri. For example, I would interpret
    {mi fi'o simsa do se bangu lo lojbo} as

     =C2=A0 mi do simsa lo ka lo lojbo cu bangu
     =C2=A0 + a claim that {mi se bangu lo lojbo}

    The same idea applies to BAI, so {.i broda .i seni'i bo brode} is
    interpreted as

     =C2=A0 lo du'u broda cu nibli lo du'u brode
     =C2=A0 + the fact that both {broda} and {brode} are claimed

I do need to mention thought that I don't particularly _like_ this=20
example using simsa, since you have to "split" the sentence to fill two=20
separate places of simsa (namely x1 and x3). It's cleaner when the whole=20
enclosing bridi moves directly into a nu or du'u abstraction, e.g.

 =C2=A0 .i fi'o djuno mi lo bruna cu djica co sonci binxo

And I would interpret as

 =C2=A0 .i mi djuno lo du'u lo bruna cu djica co sonci binxo + a claim that=
=20
"lo bruna cu djica co sonci binxo".

This lines up with the way tenses are interpreted, except as you=20
mentioned, tenses are backwards.

 =C2=A0 .i mi pu lo nu sipna cu cadzu lo klaji
 =C2=A0 .i lo nu mi cadzu lo klaji cu purci lo nu sipna + a claim that "mi=
=20
cadzu lo klaji"

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o


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">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-01-13 16:51,
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:scope845hlang343=
jbo@icebubble.org">scope845hlang343jbo@icebubble.org</a> wrote:
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:86wnwg5wuq.fsf@cmarib.ramside">
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">I'm looking at the EBNF gramma=
r in the CLL, but not seeing it.  Are you
using the rule statement-2_13?  Odd... the on-line version of the CLL
contains the EBNF, but not the YACC grammar.  According to the YACC:

lexer_K_955             :  lexer_K_711  I_root_956  BO_508
                        |  lexer_K_711  I_root_956  simple_tag_971  BO_508
                        ;

The "simple_tag_971" doesn't permit {fi'o} clauses.  Are you using
grammar.300?

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p>I just use camxes. Perhaps the CLL doesn't allow fi'o clauses as
      sentence connectives due to a limitation in the parser (it would
      require too much lookahead, maybe?) Camxes essentially allows
      unlimited lookahead.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Anyway, there's no compelling reason that it should be forbidden,
      if we believe that fi'o clauses should be equivalent to BAI tags.<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:86wnwg5wuq.fsf@cmarib.ramside">
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">It turns out that in the dec=
ades since the CLL was published that the
language has continued to evolve and that interpretations have been
refined. The CLL interpretation for fi'o falls a bit flat because it
doesn't explain the connection between this new place and the old
selbri, whereas the 'new' interpretation is for the most part
compatible with the old one (gives essentially the same
interpretations) while being more precise.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
The CLL's description of the meaning of {fi'o} clauses isn't expressed
particularly clearly, but the meaning expressed is pretty clear.  The
meaning of a {fi'o} clause is determined the same way as for BAI cmavo:
it specifies something which fills the x1 place of the BAI or FIhO
clause.  Tenses are interpereted slightly differently (exchanging the x1
and x2 places) for historical reasons.  What is this "new", modern,
interpretation of {fi'o}, as you understand it?
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Here's the explanation I gave in my message on 2 January:</p>
    <blockquote>
      <p>The usual strategy to interpret a {fi'o} clause is to rearrange
        to make its selbri the top-level selbri. For example, I would
        interpret {mi fi'o simsa do se bangu lo lojbo} as
        <br>
        <br>
        =C2=A0 mi do simsa lo ka lo lojbo cu bangu
        <br>
        =C2=A0 + a claim that {mi se bangu lo lojbo}
        <br>
        <br>
        The same idea applies to BAI, so {.i broda .i seni'i bo brode}
        is interpreted as
        <br>
        <br>
        =C2=A0 lo du'u broda cu nibli lo du'u brode
        <br>
        =C2=A0 + the fact that both {broda} and {brode} are claimed=C2=A0</=
p>
    </blockquote>
    <p>I do need to mention thought that I don't particularly _like_
      this example using simsa, since you have to "split" the sentence
      to fill two separate places of simsa (namely x1 and x3). It's
      cleaner when the whole enclosing bridi moves directly into a nu or
      du'u abstraction, e.g.<br>
    </p>
    <p>=C2=A0 .i fi'o djuno mi lo bruna cu djica co sonci binxo</p>
    <p>And I would interpret as</p>
    <p>=C2=A0 .i mi djuno lo du'u lo bruna cu djica co sonci binxo + a clai=
m
      that "lo bruna cu djica co sonci binxo".</p>
    <p>This lines up with the way tenses are interpreted, except as you
      mentioned, tenses are backwards.<br>
    </p>
    <p>=C2=A0 .i mi pu lo nu sipna cu cadzu lo klaji<br>
      =C2=A0 .i lo nu mi cadzu lo klaji cu purci lo nu sipna + a claim that
      "mi cadzu lo klaji"</p>
    <p>.i mi'e la tsani mu'o<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
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<p></p>

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