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From: "Mike S." <maikxlx@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 21:03:08 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban is a logical failure
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Greetings Corbin,

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 11:08 AM Corbin Simpson <mostawesomedude@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> Time for the sort-of-annual reminder that Lojban falls far short of its
> goals. I'll spell out an explicit recipe for achieving those goals.
>
> Suppose that Lojban were logical; that is, suppose that it has a logic
> [0]. A logic has three components:
>
> * A collection of letters which form a collection of words
> * A grammar which indicates whether a sequence of words is a well-formed
> sentence
> * A collection of rewrite rules which each match sequences of words within
> well-formed sentences and replace them with new sequences of words which
> are still well-formed
>

What sort of rewrite rules do you mean?  Are you talking about the
transformation rules of propositional logic, for example, given "P and Q"
conclude "P" (i.e. conjunction elimination)? Those sorts of rules are just
the tip of the iceberg for something like Lojban.

If you are talking about the total collection of possible rewrite rules,
including trivial ones, that could be posited for Lojban, then I suspect
that the collection size would be staggering -- off the top of my head:
within clauses, you can reorder terms and the matrix predicate using FA;
depending on context, you can alternate CU and KU and other terminators;
again, depending on context, you can sometimes move NA KU (at least thanks
to Xorlo rules you can) and sometimes not, and of course, su'o can be
rewritten as naku ro naku; there are bucket loads of particles which can
interact with either clauses or more locally that have some modal-logic
effect.  Even if you could sort out all the scope issues, sorting out the
semantics would not be easy.  Then there is the actual lexicon; in general
any predicate might have one or more equivalent decompositions (given x1 is
a mother conclude x1 is a female parent) and probably has one or more
hypernymic replacements (given x1 is a cat, conclude x1 is a feline, or
carnivore, or mammal, or vertebrate, or ...).  Finally there is the
(non-)compositional nature of tanru, the centerpiece of Lojban's
semantics.  Thankfully, in practice most tanru are hyponyms of the tertau,
so we can be relatively sure a xekri mlatu is a cat, though we can't be
fully sure it's a black one, because "je" is not necessarily to be presumed
(bizarrely to me).

I don't see how one could go about being totally thorough in specifying
rewrite rules, and I am not sure it's even possible.  But maybe you have
something much more focused in mind -- like a fragment of the full Lojban
language that would be easier to manage.  That might work. I don't know.

Best,
-Mike

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Greetings Corbin,</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 11:08 AM Corbin Simpson &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:mostawesomedude@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mostawesomedude@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hey=
 all,<div><br></div><div>Time for the sort-of-annual reminder that Lojban f=
alls far short of its goals. I&#39;ll spell out an explicit recipe for achi=
eving those goals.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Suppose that Lojban were lo=
gical; that is, suppose that it has a logic [0]. A logic has three componen=
ts:</div><div><br></div><div>* A collection of letters which form a collect=
ion of words</div><div>* A grammar which indicates whether a sequence of wo=
rds is a well-formed sentence</div><div>* A collection of rewrite rules whi=
ch each match sequences of words within well-formed sentences and replace t=
hem with new sequences of words which are still well-formed</div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>What sort of rewrite rules do you mean?=C2=A0 Are yo=
u talking about the transformation rules of propositional logic, for exampl=
e, given &quot;P and Q&quot; conclude &quot;P&quot; (i.e. conjunction elimi=
nation)? Those sorts of rules are just the tip of the iceberg for something=
 like Lojban.<br></div><div><br></div><div> If you are talking about the to=
tal collection of possible rewrite rules, including trivial ones, that coul=
d be posited for Lojban, then I suspect that the collection size would be s=
taggering -- off the top of my head: within clauses, you can reorder terms =
and the matrix predicate

 using FA; depending on context, you can alternate CU and KU and other term=
inators; again, depending on context, you can sometimes move NA KU (at leas=
t thanks to Xorlo rules you can) and sometimes not, and of course, su&#39;o=
 can be rewritten as naku ro naku; there are bucket loads of particles whic=
h can interact with either clauses or more locally that have some modal-log=
ic effect.=C2=A0 Even if you could sort out all the scope issues, sorting o=
ut the semantics would not be easy.=C2=A0 Then there is the actual lexicon;=
 in general any predicate might have one or more equivalent decompositions =
(given x1 is a mother conclude x1 is a female parent) and probably has one =
or more hypernymic replacements (given x1 is a cat, conclude x1 is a feline=
, or carnivore, or mammal, or vertebrate, or ...).=C2=A0 Finally there is t=
he (non-)compositional nature of tanru, the centerpiece of Lojban&#39;s sem=
antics.=C2=A0 Thankfully, in practice most tanru are hyponyms of the tertau=
, so we can be relatively sure a xekri mlatu is a cat, though we can&#39;t =
be fully sure it&#39;s a black one, because &quot;je&quot; is not necessari=
ly to be presumed (bizarrely to me).<br></div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39=
;t see how one could go about being totally thorough in specifying rewrite =
rules, and I am not sure it&#39;s even possible.=C2=A0 But maybe you have s=
omething much more focused in mind -- like a fragment of the full Lojban la=
nguage that would be easier to manage.=C2=A0 That might work. I don&#39;t k=
now.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>-Mike<br></div><br></div></di=
v>

<p></p>

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