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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 00:01:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Yannis Haralambous <yannis1962@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: "The beautiful little dancer" in Lojban
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Thank you for your many answers. So it seems I can write:


*the gendered versionle melbi      ke cmalu ke nakni dansuthe beautiful ( 
 small (  male  dancer)le melbi      ke cmalu ke fetsi   dansuthe beautiful 
(  small (  female  dancer)the gendered affix versionle melbi      ke cmalu 
nakydansuthe beautiful (  small male-dancer)le melbi      ke cmalu 
fe'idansuthe beautiful (  small female-dancer)*
But is there a semantic or pragmatic difference between "ke nakni dansu" 
and "nakydansu"?

What I mean is: under what circumstances would you choose the affixed 
rather than the non-affixed version? 

Is is that using "ke nakni" would mean emphasizing on the gender?
 
I noticed that some of you use the particle je and others ke, what is the 
difference?

Thanks again,

Yannis


On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 7:46:47 AM UTC+1 
scope845h...@icebubble.org wrote:

> "Mark E. Shoulson" <ma...@kli.org> writes:
>
> > You can also work ninmu/nanmu or fetsi/nakni into the the description
> > itself and not use a relative clause as gleki has done below.
>
> I agree with Mark. I'd probably go with something like:
> {le pa cmalu je melbi je ninmu dansu} and
> {le pa cmalu je melbi je nanmu dansu}.
>
> But in real-life Lojban, "the beautiful little dancer" would most likely
> occur with an antecedent, i.e.:
>
> {pa lo ninmu cu sanli le tsina}
> A woman stands on the stage.
> {.i logo'i noi cmalu je melbi cu dansu}
> [it/she], which/who is small and beautiful, dances.
>
> In such usage, the gender is indicated upon first mention, with the
> description referring to the gendered antecedent. It might be clearer
> to examine the Lojban translation of "a beautiful little dancer."
>

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Thank you for your many answers. So it seems I can write:<div><b><br></b></=
div><b>the gendered version<br><br>le melbi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ke cmalu ke=
 nakni dansu<br>the beautiful ( &nbsp;small ( &nbsp;male &nbsp;dancer)<br><=
br>le melbi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ke cmalu ke fetsi &nbsp; dansu<br>the beaut=
iful ( &nbsp;small ( &nbsp;female &nbsp;dancer)<br><br>the gendered affix v=
ersion<br><br>le melbi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ke cmalu nakydansu<br>the beauti=
ful ( &nbsp;small male-dancer)<br><br>le melbi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ke cmalu=
 fe'idansu<br>the beautiful ( &nbsp;small female-dancer)<br></b><br>But is =
there a semantic or pragmatic difference between "ke nakni dansu" and "naky=
dansu"?<br><br>What I mean is: under what circumstances would you choose th=
e affixed rather than the non-affixed version? <br><br>Is is that using "ke=
 nakni" would mean emphasizing on the gender?<br><div>&nbsp;<br>I noticed t=
hat some of you use the particle je and others ke, what is the difference?<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again,</div><div><br></div><div>Yannis</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 7:46:47 AM UTC+1 sc=
ope845h...@icebubble.org wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">&quot;Mark E. Shoulson&quot; &lt;<a href data-email-mask=
ed rel=3D"nofollow">ma...@kli.org</a>&gt; writes:
<br>
<br>&gt; You can also work ninmu/nanmu or fetsi/nakni into the the descript=
ion
<br>&gt; itself and not use a relative clause as gleki has done below.
<br>
<br>I agree with Mark.  I&#39;d probably go with something like:
<br>{le pa cmalu je melbi je ninmu dansu} and
<br>{le pa cmalu je melbi je nanmu dansu}.
<br>
<br>But in real-life Lojban, &quot;the beautiful little dancer&quot; would =
most likely
<br>occur with an antecedent, i.e.:
<br>
<br>{pa lo ninmu cu sanli le tsina}
<br>A woman stands on the stage.
<br>{.i logo&#39;i noi cmalu je melbi cu dansu}
<br>[it/she], which/who is small and beautiful, dances.
<br>
<br>In such usage, the gender is indicated upon first mention, with the
<br>description referring to the gendered antecedent.  It might be clearer
<br>to examine the Lojban translation of &quot;a beautiful little dancer.&q=
uot;
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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