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Subject: [lojban] Re: "The beautiful little dancer" in Lojban
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Le jeudi 29 d=C3=A9cembre 2022 =C3=A0 11 h 17 min 45 s UTC+3, yanni...@gmai=
l.com a=20
=C3=A9crit :

> Thank you for your many answers. So it seems I can write:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *the gendered versionle melbi      ke cmalu ke nakni dansuthe beautiful (=
=20
>  small (  male  dancer)le melbi      ke cmalu ke fetsi   dansuthe beautif=
ul=20
> (  small (  female  dancer)the gendered affix versionle melbi      ke cma=
lu=20
> nakydansuthe beautiful (  small male-dancer)le melbi      ke cmalu=20
> fe'idansuthe beautiful (  small female-dancer)*


fe'irdansu (fe'idansu are two words)


> But is there a semantic or pragmatic difference between "ke nakni dansu"=
=20
> and "nakydansu"?
>

lujvo can have meaning separate from their underlying tanru. E.g.=20
{bramlatu} may mean "Big Cat" (lion, tiger etc.) as opposed to "big cat"=20
which might be just {barda mlatu} or {lo mlatu poi barda}
=20

>
> What I mean is: under what circumstances would you choose the affixed=20
> rather than the non-affixed version?=20
>
> Is is that using "ke nakni" would mean emphasizing on the gender?
> =20
> I noticed that some of you use the particle je and others ke, what is the=
=20
> difference?
>

*ke ... [ke'e]* is a pair of brackets showing scope within tanru. Tanru by=
=20
definition are vague entities so the logical AND operator *je* would be=20
more precise.
 =20

>
> Thanks again,
>
> Yannis
>
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 7:46:47 AM UTC+1=20
> scope845h...@icebubble.org wrote:
>
>> "Mark E. Shoulson" <ma...@kli.org> writes:=20
>>
>> > You can also work ninmu/nanmu or fetsi/nakni into the the description=
=20
>> > itself and not use a relative clause as gleki has done below.=20
>>
>> I agree with Mark. I'd probably go with something like:=20
>> {le pa cmalu je melbi je ninmu dansu} and=20
>> {le pa cmalu je melbi je nanmu dansu}.=20
>>
>> But in real-life Lojban, "the beautiful little dancer" would most likely=
=20
>> occur with an antecedent, i.e.:=20
>>
>> {pa lo ninmu cu sanli le tsina}=20
>> A woman stands on the stage.=20
>> {.i logo'i noi cmalu je melbi cu dansu}=20
>> [it/she], which/who is small and beautiful, dances.=20
>>
>> In such usage, the gender is indicated upon first mention, with the=20
>> description referring to the gendered antecedent. It might be clearer=20
>> to examine the Lojban translation of "a beautiful little dancer."=20
>>
>

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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">L=
e jeudi 29 d=C3=A9cembre 2022 =C3=A0 11 h 17 min 45 s UTC+3, yanni...@gmail=
.com a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding=
-left: 1ex;">Thank you for your many answers. So it seems I can write:<div>=
<b><br></b></div><b>the gendered version<br><br>le melbi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;ke cmalu ke nakni dansu<br>the beautiful ( &nbsp;small ( &nbsp;male &nbsp=
;dancer)<br><br>le melbi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ke cmalu ke fetsi &nbsp; dansu=
<br>the beautiful ( &nbsp;small ( &nbsp;female &nbsp;dancer)<br><br>the gen=
dered affix version<br><br>le melbi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ke cmalu nakydansu<=
br>the beautiful ( &nbsp;small male-dancer)<br><br>le melbi &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;ke cmalu fe'idansu<br>the beautiful ( &nbsp;small female-dancer)<br></=
b></blockquote><div><br></div><div>fe'irdansu (fe'idansu are two words)<br>=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; b=
order-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><b></b><br>Bu=
t is there a semantic or pragmatic difference between "ke nakni dansu" and =
"nakydansu"?<br></blockquote><div><br>lujvo can have meaning separate from =
their underlying tanru. E.g. {bramlatu} may mean "Big Cat" (lion, tiger etc=
.) as opposed to "big cat" which might be just {barda mlatu} or {lo mlatu p=
oi barda}<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;=
"><br>What I mean is: under what circumstances would you choose the affixed=
 rather than the non-affixed version? <br><br>Is is that using "ke nakni" w=
ould mean emphasizing on the gender?<br><div>&nbsp;<br>I noticed that some =
of you use the particle je and others ke, what is the difference?</div></bl=
ockquote><div><b><br></b></div><div><b>ke ... [ke'e]</b> is a pair of brack=
ets showing scope within tanru. Tanru by definition are vague entities so t=
he logical AND operator <b>je</b>&nbsp;would be more precise.</div><div>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8=
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><br=
></div><div>Thanks again,</div><div><br></div><div>Yannis</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 7:46:47 AM UTC+1 <a href=3D"" da=
ta-email-masked=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">scope845h...@icebubble.org</a> wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">"Mark E. Shoulson" &l=
t;<a rel=3D"nofollow">ma...@kli.org</a>&gt; writes:
<br>
<br>&gt; You can also work ninmu/nanmu or fetsi/nakni into the the descript=
ion
<br>&gt; itself and not use a relative clause as gleki has done below.
<br>
<br>I agree with Mark.  I'd probably go with something like:
<br>{le pa cmalu je melbi je ninmu dansu} and
<br>{le pa cmalu je melbi je nanmu dansu}.
<br>
<br>But in real-life Lojban, "the beautiful little dancer" would most likel=
y
<br>occur with an antecedent, i.e.:
<br>
<br>{pa lo ninmu cu sanli le tsina}
<br>A woman stands on the stage.
<br>{.i logo'i noi cmalu je melbi cu dansu}
<br>[it/she], which/who is small and beautiful, dances.
<br>
<br>In such usage, the gender is indicated upon first mention, with the
<br>description referring to the gendered antecedent.  It might be clearer
<br>to examine the Lojban translation of "a beautiful little dancer."
<br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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