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Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 20:27:52 -0500
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Subject: [lojban] Question about tanru, incidental relative clauses, and
 misleading language
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Hi all,

I haven't really engaged with Lojban in years, but I recently had a few
run-ins with things I like about Lojban, which prompted me with a question
that I couldn't resolve myself, so I figured I'd ask.

I really like the fact that "noi" and "poi" are distinct and that there is
no way to have a relative clause (or an appositive) that is ambiguous
between restrictive and incidental. I then wondered if you could sneak that
ambiguity into a tanru. I think the answer is yes: "lo mi xunre karce"
could be either "lo mi karce poi xunre" or "lo mi karce noi xunre", right?
After all, if "lo gerku zdani" is broad enough to be able to refer to a
house that a dog once slept in, why not?

If that's the case, I wonder if tanru enable a particular kind of
misleading language pattern I've recently been introduced to: cat couplings
<https://everythingstudies.com/2021/07/18/cat-couplings-revisited/>. They
leverage the ambiguity between a restrictive and non-restrictive sense of a
compound phrase to presuppose a natural concept expressed by the phrase.
The article has many examples in English; I'm going to go with "stupid
American" (because it's easy to translate).

"mi bebna merpre .i ku'i co'e" implies "lo ka merpre bebna cu zasti" (i.e.
that American stupidity exists as a concept).

Am I correct that the ambiguity in tanru allows this kind of sneaky
implication just as in English? If not, why not?

Thanks.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi all,</div><div><br></div><div>I haven&#39;t really=
 engaged with Lojban in years, but I recently had a few run-ins with things=
 I like about Lojban, which prompted me with a question that I couldn&#39;t=
 resolve myself, so I figured I&#39;d ask.</div><div><br></div><div>I reall=
y like the fact that &quot;noi&quot; and &quot;poi&quot; are distinct and t=
hat there is no way to have a relative clause (or an appositive) that is am=
biguous between restrictive and incidental. I then wondered if you could sn=
eak that ambiguity into a tanru. I think the answer is yes: &quot;lo mi xun=
re karce&quot; could be either &quot;lo mi karce poi xunre&quot; or &quot;l=
o mi karce noi xunre&quot;, right? After all, if &quot;lo gerku zdani&quot;=
 is broad enough to be able to refer to a house that a dog once slept in, w=
hy not?</div><div><br></div><div>If that&#39;s the case, I wonder if tanru =
enable a particular kind of misleading language pattern I&#39;ve recently b=
een introduced to: <a href=3D"https://everythingstudies.com/2021/07/18/cat-=
couplings-revisited/">cat couplings</a>. They leverage the ambiguity betwee=
n a restrictive and non-restrictive sense of a compound phrase to presuppos=
e a natural concept expressed by the phrase. The article has many examples =
in English; I&#39;m going to go with &quot;stupid American&quot; (because i=
t&#39;s easy to translate).</div><div><br></div><div>&quot;mi bebna merpre =
.i ku&#39;i co&#39;e&quot; implies &quot;lo ka merpre bebna cu zasti&quot; =
(i.e. that American stupidity exists as a concept).</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Am I correct that the ambiguity in tanru allows this kind of sneaky impli=
cation just as in English? If not, why not?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks=
.<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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