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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 07:11:34 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkThj9-nRHODKXtjYFGJ6wFYCa5PJ-y=1ydzNx8XTgMJtg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Question about tanru, incidental relative clauses, and
 misleading language
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I would agree with

On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 8:28 PM .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I haven't really engaged with Lojban in years, but I recently had a few
> run-ins with things I like about Lojban, which prompted me with a question
> that I couldn't resolve myself, so I figured I'd ask.
>
> I really like the fact that "noi" and "poi" are distinct and that there is
> no way to have a relative clause (or an appositive) that is ambiguous
> between restrictive and incidental. I then wondered if you could sneak that
> ambiguity into a tanru. I think the answer is yes: "lo mi xunre karce"
> could be either "lo mi karce poi xunre" or "lo mi karce noi xunre", right?
> After all, if "lo gerku zdani" is broad enough to be able to refer to a
> house that a dog once slept in, why not?
>
> If that's the case, I wonder if tanru enable a particular kind of
> misleading language pattern I've recently been introduced to: cat
> couplings
> <https://everythingstudies.com/2021/07/18/cat-couplings-revisited/>. They
> leverage the ambiguity between a restrictive and non-restrictive sense of a
> compound phrase to presuppose a natural concept expressed by the phrase.
> The article has many examples in English; I'm going to go with "stupid
> American" (because it's easy to translate).
>
> "mi bebna merpre .i ku'i co'e" implies "lo ka merpre bebna cu zasti" (i.e.
> that American stupidity exists as a concept).
>
> Am I correct that the ambiguity in tanru allows this kind of sneaky
> implication just as in English? If not, why not?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/CALm%3D%3DBXRo8qPWpyK8d4f3PoJn9%3DJNtLbFuhBV%3DfFsLZxZNKzKA%40mail.gmail.com
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> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I would agree with</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 8:28 PM .arpis. =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rpglover64%2Bjbobau@gmail.com">rpglover64+jbobau@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi all,</div><div><br></div><div>I haven&#39;t r=
eally engaged with Lojban in years, but I recently had a few run-ins with t=
hings I like about Lojban, which prompted me with a question that I couldn&=
#39;t resolve myself, so I figured I&#39;d ask.</div><div><br></div><div>I =
really like the fact that &quot;noi&quot; and &quot;poi&quot; are distinct =
and that there is no way to have a relative clause (or an appositive) that =
is ambiguous between restrictive and incidental. I then wondered if you cou=
ld sneak that ambiguity into a tanru. I think the answer is yes: &quot;lo m=
i xunre karce&quot; could be either &quot;lo mi karce poi xunre&quot; or &q=
uot;lo mi karce noi xunre&quot;, right? After all, if &quot;lo gerku zdani&=
quot; is broad enough to be able to refer to a house that a dog once slept =
in, why not?</div><div><br></div><div>If that&#39;s the case, I wonder if t=
anru enable a particular kind of misleading language pattern I&#39;ve recen=
tly been introduced to: <a href=3D"https://everythingstudies.com/2021/07/18=
/cat-couplings-revisited/" target=3D"_blank">cat couplings</a>. They levera=
ge the ambiguity between a restrictive and non-restrictive sense of a compo=
und phrase to presuppose a natural concept expressed by the phrase. The art=
icle has many examples in English; I&#39;m going to go with &quot;stupid Am=
erican&quot; (because it&#39;s easy to translate).</div><div><br></div><div=
>&quot;mi bebna merpre .i ku&#39;i co&#39;e&quot; implies &quot;lo ka merpr=
e bebna cu zasti&quot; (i.e. that American stupidity exists as a concept).<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Am I correct that the ambiguity in tanru allows th=
is kind of sneaky implication just as in English? If not, why not?</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Thanks.<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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