From sentto-44114-14901-1028555539-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Aug 05 06:52:52 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.107]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17biHy-0001vj-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:52:50 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-14901-1028555539-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2002 13:52:19 -0000 X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Aug 2002 13:52:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 25678 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2002 13:52:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2002 13:52:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2002 13:52:17 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.180.b7cb117 (18710) for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <180.b7cb117.2a7fdd02@aol.com> To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10509 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:52:02 EDT Subject: [lojban] Non-English gi'uste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_180.b7cb117.2a7fdd02_boundary" X-archive-position: 431 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pycyn@aol.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --part1_180.b7cb117.2a7fdd02_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Far from being just an amusement, translating the gi'uste may be one of the more important moves in the independence of Lojban from English. Inevitable differences in the semantics of different language will -- eventually -- make more precise the meanings of the gismu and cmavo (and hence of all the vocabulary of Lojban). As Lojbab reminds us, the English versions of the the lists are baselined. Thus, experimentation that can help us to find what Lojban words mean (what usage decides), if Lojban is not just odd English, will have to be worked out by following models provided by other languages as they are available to us. Not being frozen, they are open to modification as new insights come along. Eventually, these will have to be folded back into the English and all the other varieties (as far as possible -- maybe only examples and discussion will cover them in some cases). As Adam reminds us, many gismu (and cmavo as well) are still more vague than they need to be -- and ultimately will be. Rather than just accepting this as a necessary evil because of the freeze, we can do quite a bit outside English to specify these more precisely, using non-English vocabulary (and, hopefully, non-English speakers). So, you gismu translators (and more to come, I hope), keep up the good work! --part1_180.b7cb117.2a7fdd02_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Far from being just an amusement, translating the gi'uste may be one of the more important moves in the independence of Lojban from English. Inevitable differences in the semantics of different language will -- eventually -- make more precise the meanings of the gismu and cmavo (and hence of all the vocabulary of Lojban). As Lojbab reminds us, the English versions of the the lists are baselined. Thus, experimentation that can help us to find what Lojban words mean (what usage decides), if Lojban is not just odd English, will have to be worked out by following models provided by other languages as they are available to us. Not being frozen, they are open to modification as new insights come along. Eventually, these will have to be folded back into the English and all the other varieties (as far as possible -- maybe only examples and discussion will cover them in some cases). As Adam reminds us, many gismu (and cmavo as well) are still more vague than they need to be -- and ultimately will be. Rather than just accepting this as a necessary evil because of the freeze, we can do quite a bit outside English to specify these more precisely, using non-English vocabulary (and, hopefully, non-English speakers).
So, you gismu translators (and more to come, I hope), keep up the good work!

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