From sentto-44114-14950-1028736588-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Aug 07 09:10:21 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.106]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17cTO7-0005UG-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:10:19 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-14950-1028736588-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2002 16:09:48 -0000 X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 16:09:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 77882 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 16:09:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 16:09:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao01.cox.net) (68.1.17.244) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 16:09:47 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020807160947.RQJY29627.lakemtao01.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:09:47 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807112453.03168c60@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020806233600.033cee40@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020806173358.03249370@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805225835.00abfa10@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020806173358.03249370@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020806233600.033cee40@pop.east.cox.net> From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 12:09:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: non-core translations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 480 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list At 11:04 AM 8/7/02 +0000, Robert J. Chassell wrote: > At 12:29 AM 8/7/02 +0000, Robert J. Chassell wrote: > >and the end of the freeze period is coming up. > > My position is that the freeze continues until 5 years *after the three > books have been published* (refgrammar, dictionary, and textbook), ... > >My apologies; my misunderstanding. I thought the intention was to end >the freeze 5 years after the creation and publication of a stable >grammar -- that 5 years would be enough time to discover the major >problems and come up with acceptable solutions. If that were the case, then the baseline would have already ended. The start of the final grammar baseline was at the end of December 1996, and the rest of the language was supposed to be nominally frozen except for typos and the like as of 6 months after that. But the whole point of the freeze has always been to present a language that is stable and unchanging that people can seriously learn it. We've been told by some people that they cannot or will not learn the language until we publish a dictionary or until we publish a complete textbook, each of which is appropriate and necessary to certain kinds of learning styles. The 5 year period was based on my assumption at the (I think it was 1988 or 1989 that I first mentioned a 5 year freeze) time that it would take approximately that long from the time we had books to the time that we had a solid community of Lojban speakers and therefore could allow "natural language processes" to take over. When the baseline freeze ends, people might discuss (in Lojban) changes that they would like to see to the language, and maybe they will build a consensus for change. But I'm hoping that LLG will be effectively out of the language prescription business. So long as people think that we might change the language by decree rendering their prior learning moot (as JCB did several times), some will hold back from trying to learn the language. From the second-language learning studies I did as a result of adopting non-English speaking kids, I now know that it takes 5-7 years before even a school-age kid acquires full native competence in English (conversational native fluency takes 18-24 months, but academic native fluency is much harder). Lojban may be mastered more quickly than English, but I won't assume that it is. Thus, while I have no intention of dragging out the baseline period to "keep control", there is a theoretical reason for my not being entirely unhappy that it will persist more than 5 (and indeed more than 10 total if my interpretation holds) years. Now as it turns out, the real burgeoning of Lojban speakers has just started. xod and Robin P. are of the opinion that we could conduct the LLG business meeting solely in fluent Lojban by 2005, which I find doubtful (that is academic and not conversational usage), but have no problem with people trying for it. But hopefully sometime in the next 5-7 years, we'll reach that critical mass of Lojban speakers such that discussion of the language in English (other than for teaching English speakers or presenting research papers to non-Lojbanists) will be itself "malglico". Then a freeze on the primarily-English-language design documents would no longer be meaningful, much less necessary. At that point, all language documents in whatever language should become descriptive rather than prescriptive, and the language will be completely in the hands of its users, which has always been the purpose for which I started work on Lojban. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org ------------------------ Yahoo! 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