From jimc@math.ucla.edu Thu Aug 08 09:27:02 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from simba.math.ucla.edu ([128.97.4.125]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17cq7o-00012N-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:00 -0700 Received: from localhost (jimc@localhost) by simba.math.ucla.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id g78GQTI01529 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:26:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: simba.math.ucla.edu: jimc owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:26:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Carter To: Subject: Re: [lojban] Arbitrary baseline violations (was: zo xruti xruti) In-Reply-To: <20020807183232.G1314-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 490 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jimc@math.ucla.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Invent Yourself wrote: > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Jorge Llambias wrote: > > Anyway, I have changed the Spanish definition to read thus: > > xruti xru volver > > x1 vuelve/regresa/retorna a estado/lugar anterior/original x2 desde x3; > > [def. oficial: x1 devuelve/regresa x2 a persona/estado/lugar > > anterior/original x3 desde x4] > > This is something that belongs in commentary, rather than the official > dictionary. No gismu list should deviate in place structure: that is too > blatant a violation, and cannot be justified as difference of translation > opinion! Pardon a lurker opening yap, but I agree with Xod's position. The difference between the transitive (agentive) and non-transitive argument format is quite major, and machine-based applications of Lojban (not to mention human users) will not be able to deal with ambiguity between them. In the last revision campaign before baseline, it was decided that non-transitive formats offered the most flexibility in usage, and many place structures were revised accordingly. It looks like this one got missed. It should be taken up *AFTER* *BASELINE* *EXPIRATION*. Then you'll have my "yes" vote. The reason for preferring non-transitive formats is that it was considered easy and natural to add transitivity by a compound with -gau (gasnu), whereas blocking out X1 of a transitive, by using conversions or caselinks, is less aesthetically pleasing. There is also the problem that xruti can't properly cover "returns or reverts by itself". My gismu list suggests using se'ixru for that. But I happen to agree that se'ixru is a lot more ad-hoc than xrugau (with non-transitive xruti). So: wait for the baseline to expire, then make the change. James F. Carter Voice 310 825 2897 FAX 310 206 6673 UCLA-Mathnet; 6115 MSA; 405 Hilgard Ave.; Los Angeles, CA, USA 90095-1555 Email: jimc@math.ucla.edu http://www.math.ucla.edu/~jimc (q.v. for PGP key)