From sentto-44114-15057-1029249690-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 07:42:03 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.92]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17ecrx-0006SD-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:42:01 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15057-1029249690-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 14:41:30 -0000 X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 14:41:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 26667 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 14:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 14:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 14:41:29 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.1ba.4bb1441 (4584) for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1ba.4bb1441.2a8a7493@aol.com> To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10509 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:41:23 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] x3 of dasni Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1ba.4bb1441.2a8a7493_boundary" X-archive-position: 587 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pycyn@aol.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --part1_1ba.4bb1441.2a8a7493_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/2002 9:14:48 AM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: << > When I look at {tu'a lo dinko} I see {le du'u lo dinko cu co'e}. > Maybe I am overly structured, but I can't see this as nails in > intension, I keep seeing it as a proposition about nails. >> That - and other abstracts like events and properties -- is a large part of what "nails in intension" means. "Argument," remember is a suface syntactic term, not a semantic one. << Part of the problem is that you and I are speaking different languages. You start from the premise that places can be extensional or intensional >> So, not different langauges but different assumptions in the language. I think that all places ought to be extensional, but that we screw up occasionally. << To me all places are neutral in this regard. It is only the way of referring to the members of a set that can be extensional or intensional. Quantified descriptors (lo/le) are extensional, and non-quantified descriptors (lo'e) are intensional. Neither {le ka ce'u broda} nor {le du'u lo broda cu co'e} is for me a reference to the members of lo'i broda, rather they refer to properties/propositions. >> But you can't have it both ways, {le du'u ce'u broda} is a quantified descriptor but is intensional. And it is, of course a reference to mebers of lo'i du'u ce'u broda. What (God help us all) would {lo'e du'u ce'u broda} be like? << That [as a kind of disjoint tanru]'s not a bad way of looking at it! {broda lo'e brode} can be thought of as {brode broda zi'o}, except that the tanru relationship is much more precise in the first case. >> And how will all this expand when we try to explain the tanru; what comes after {ta'unai}? That is, what precisely is the tanru relation involved? We have gotten a long way from archetypes or intensions or anything else of where we started here. Is there a binding thread, an intuition that you are trying to formalize? If so, what is it? --part1_1ba.4bb1441.2a8a7493_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/2002 9:14:48 AM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:

<<
When I look at {tu'a lo dinko} I see {le du'u lo dinko cu co'e}.
Maybe I am overly structured, but I can't see this as nails in
intension, I keep seeing it as a proposition about nails.

>>
That - and other abstracts like events and properties -- is a large part of what "nails in intension" means.  "Argument,"  remember is a suface syntactic term, not a semantic one.

<<
Part of the problem is that you and I are speaking different
languages. You start from the premise that places can be
extensional or intensional
>>
So, not different langauges but different assumptions in the language.  I think that all places ought to be extensional, but that we screw up occasionally.

<<
To me all places are neutral in
this regard. It is only the way of referring to the members
of a set that can be extensional or intensional. Quantified
descriptors (lo/le) are extensional, and non-quantified
descriptors (lo'e) are intensional. Neither {le ka ce'u broda}
nor {le du'u lo broda cu co'e} is for me a reference to the
members of lo'i broda, rather they refer to
properties/propositions.
>>
But you can't have it both ways, {le du'u ce'u broda} is a quantified descriptor  but is intensional. And it is, of course a reference to mebers of lo'i du'u ce'u broda.  What (God help us all) would {lo'e du'u ce'u broda} be like?

<<
That [as a kind of disjoint tanru]'s not a bad way of looking at it! {broda lo'e brode} can be thought of as {brode broda zi'o}, except that the tanru
relationship is much more precise in the first case.
>>
And how will all this expand when we try to explain the tanru; what comes after {ta'unai}?  That is, what precisely is the tanru relation involved?
We have gotten a long way from archetypes or intensions or anything else of where we started here.  Is there a binding thread, an intuition that you are trying to formalize?  If so, what is it?
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