From sentto-44114-15077-1029303978-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 22:46:53 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.82]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17eqza-0001db-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:46:50 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15077-1029303978-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2002 05:46:18 -0000 X-Sender: olivera@macs.biu.ac.il X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 14 Aug 2002 05:46:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 41807 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2002 05:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Aug 2002 05:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sphere.barak.net.il) (212.150.48.98) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Aug 2002 05:46:17 -0000 Received: from avitallap ([212.150.100.200]) by sphere.barak.net.il (InterMail vK.4.04.00.00 201-232-137 license b8419dca4a53cb56ee7ae4510b91963a) with SMTP id <20020814054351.KPPK11154.sphere@avitallap> for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:43:51 +0300 Message-ID: <007201c24355$d6ede030$0200a8c0@avitallap> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Avital Oliver" X-Yahoo-Profile: mivmai MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:04:08 -0500 Subject: [lojban] kau -- What does it really mean?! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1255 X-archive-position: 607 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: olivera@macs.biu.ac.il Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list coi doi jbopre PRE-DISCLAIMER: What I'm saying here is thoughts I've been having, and they are definately not finalized, thus I don't really know what I think. Please help me before I go crazy! Ahhh!@@ I'm sure this has been discussed many times, and the only reason I'm not searching the archives now (or searching HOW to search the archives) is that I'm on a flight right now. I've heard different people consider the meaning of 'kau' to be different. A main issue is that different meanings of 'kau' give different meanings to other words, like 'ni', 'ka', and the meaning of different constructions. Let me begin with a quote from The Book (C) [pg. 265]: "It is actually not necessary to use "le du'u" and "kau" at all if the indirect question involves a sumti" Given with the quote is the example "mi djuno le du'u makau pu klama le zarci", which is supposedly paraphrasable into "mi djuno le pu klama be le zarci". I find this statement very strange. The meaning I understand of "le du'u makau ..." is not the walker, but the fact that he is the walker (thus the "le du'u" -- why would "le du'u" be used if we are not speaking of knowing any fact?). The akwardness is also manifested in the way the bridi is paraphrased -- into the x3 place of djuno instead of x2. How would "mi nelci le du'u makal pu klama le zarci" be paraphrased? Into "mi nelci le pu klama be le zarci"? Why is "nelci" different than "djuno"? DISCLAIMER: The main person that shaped my understanding of the meaning of "kau" is Adam Raizen. Therefore, all my misusage is to be blamed on him =). I understand that "le klama" and "le du'u makau klama" are *very* different things. If John goes, then by saying "mi nelci le klama", I mean that I like John, and by saying "mi nelci ledu'u makau klama", I mean that I like that fact that John goes, or more precisely, I like it that it is John who goes. Now, the question is, using this interpretation of "kau", how would I discuss possible answers to questions which aren't sumti? For example, how would I say "The number of people is large", other than "le prenu cu so'imei" -- A construct similar to "le xokau prenu cu barda", but that would be nonsence, since the fact that there are N people can not be large. One might suggest using sets, which I have some disagreements with (both considering Jorge's ban on sets, and xod's thoughts, saying that a set is not large -- it's cardinality is large). But this doesn't matter. What I'd expect there to exist is something similar to a cmavo, that we shall call "kaui", that can be used instead of "kau", but instead of creating a sumti meaning "the fact that ...", we would just get the answer. Thus, I could say: "le du'u xokaui prenu cu barda". Some people have suggested using "ni" instead of my "ledu'u xokaui", but that's not what I understand of "ni". I understand that "leni blanu" means blueness. The same people would say that "blueness" is "leka blanu", which I disagree with, but this is not part of this discussion. Consider another example -- "The logical connective between the senteces "I go" and "I talk" is useful". I would say this as "ledu'u mi klama gi'ikaui tavla cu selpli". How else would this be said? Using "kau" would be incorrect, and you'd have to create strange constructions to get this using simple bridi. The main problem with what I'm saying here, of course, is, since "ledu'u xokaui ..." is a number rather than a sumti, and "ledu'u ... gi'ikaui ..." is a bridi logical connective rather than a sumti, how could I put them into a sumti place in a bridi? If 3 people walk and I say "ledu'u xokaui klama cu barda" does this mean "li ci cu barda"? How would the "li" get in there? Since I just realized I'm totally confused as to what I really want, I'll just ask two questions: a) What is the relation between "le klama" and "ledu'u makau klama"? xod suggested that it is something similar to a lu'e/la'e connection - "ledu'u makau klama" is actually a reference to the actual walker. This seems interesting, but something seems missing in this explanation. b) What is so special about "djuno" that you can say "mi djuno ledu'u makau klama", but different in "blanu" making "ledu'u makau klama cu blanu" completely meaningless? Is there a certain (small) set of gismu with which you can use "ledu'u ..kau" as opposed to others? Should this be well-defined? Thanks for helping me out, My battery is almost over, Goddamn this stupid thinkpad -- It claimed I had 3 hours of battery, but after an hour and a half (or less) it is about to die on me, Goddamnit, Avital. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/RN.GAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/