From sentto-44114-15099-1029491684-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Aug 16 02:55:18 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.75]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17fdp5-0007D9-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:55:15 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15099-1029491684-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Aug 2002 09:54:44 -0000 X-Sender: Philip.Newton@datenrevision.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 16 Aug 2002 09:54:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 52881 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2002 09:54:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Aug 2002 09:54:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spree.gedas.de) (139.1.44.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Aug 2002 09:54:43 -0000 Received: from spree.gedas.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spree.gedas.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26120 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:54:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from blnsem05.de.gedas.vwg (blnsem05.gedas.de [139.1.84.49]) by spree.gedas.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26116 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:54:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by blnsem05.de.gedas.vwg with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3W810F7J>; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:54:41 +0200 Message-ID: To: "'lojban@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) From: "Newton, Philip" X-Yahoo-Profile: elder_newton MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:54:38 +0200 Subject: [lojban] Phrases for language learners Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 629 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: Philip.Newton@datenrevision.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list While I was learning my most recent natlang, I frequently employed some phrases to help me understand other people or how to express myself. Here are the phrases as well as my attempts at translating them into Lojban; comments and corrections are extremely welcome. I'm especially unsure about whether text can simply be quoted, or has to be abstracted or de-abstracted somehow, before it can be used as the argument of such questions. Also, how would one answer such questions? Simply with the information queried? (Example: "ma valsi zo dog la lojban" - "gerku") * "What does ___ mean?" This refers to a word, a phrase, or a sentence -- it is open whether the answer is to be a translation into English or an explanation in the language itself. So a German asking "What does 'dog' mean?" might get the answer "It means 'Hund'" or "It's an animal which is often kept as a pet; it barks". My attempt: ___ se smuni ma Commment: I'm not sure how to quote the "___", though -- should it be "zo" for single words and "zoi ly. ___ .ly." for multiple words? Or always "lo'u ___ le'u"? For example, which of the following would be correct? (One word) zo gerku se smuni ma zoi ly. gerku .ly. se smuni ma lo'u gerku le'u se smuni ma (A phrase, not grammatical on its own) zoi ly. bau la lojban .ly. se smuni ma lo'u bau la lojban le'u se smuni ma (Multiple words, together grammatical on their own, but not a complete sentence) zoi ly. blanu zdani .ly. se smuni ma lo'u blanu zdani le'u se smuni ma (A complete sentence) zoi ly. mi prami do .ly. se smuni ma lo'u mi prami do le'u se smuni ma * "How do you say ___ in ?" * "What's the word for ___ in ?" This requests a translation of a word, phrase, or sentence into the target language. My attempt: cusku zoi gy. ___ .gy. fo la lojban fi'o jalge ma Comment: This one was hard, and it's probably the wrong way to express this. My grammar isn't enough to produce a good version. I'm pretty sure that "zoi" is the right cmavo here, though, since the "___" will be non-Lojban text. Other attempt: ma valsi zoi gy. ___ .gy. la lojban Comment: Only useful for individual words (or where you think the Lojban translation will be one word) -- but still. * What's the difference between [the words/phrases] ___ and ___?" Useful when two words, phrases, or constructions have similar meanings to the learner, and he wished to understand which one is used when, or how they differ in meaning. My attempt: zo ___ zo ___ frica ma (or lo'u ___ le'u lo'u ___ le'u frica ma) Comment: This seemed straightforward... there's probably a catch explaining why this is not a good way of expressing what I want. mu'omi'e filip. [email copies appreciated, since I read the digest] {ko fukpi mrilu .i'o fi mi ki'u le du'u mi te mrilu loi notseljmaji} -- Philip Newton All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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