From sentto-44114-15123-1029610845-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Aug 17 12:01:19 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.70]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17g8p2-0003OL-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:01:16 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15123-1029610845-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2002 19:00:45 -0000 X-Sender: araizen@newmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 17 Aug 2002 19:00:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 65162 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2002 19:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Aug 2002 19:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout3.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.24) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 2002 19:00:44 -0000 Received: from default ([62.0.180.97]) by mxout3.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H1000IEU4T58O@mxout3.netvision.net.il> for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:00:43 +0300 (IDT) To: lojban list Message-id: <002901c24629$9cdfa0a0$61b4003e@default> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810111025.032cb880@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811195117.031545b0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816114920.0304dc00@pop.east.cox.net> From: Adam Raizen X-Yahoo-Profile: araizen MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:01:39 +0200 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: zo xruti xruti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 653 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: araizen@newmail.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list la lojbab. cusku di'e > I believe (she isn't here now) that her objection is that: > > 1) it is easy to get from one to the other in all cases. You make a lujvo, > define a place structure for the lujvo, and it is done. This is true > either way. 'sezyxru' (and 'vo'a zei xruti' and any other lujvo I can think of other than 'zilpavyxru') often do not have the necessary meaning. One often wants to say that something reverted to a former state, without implying that there was any agent in the process, even an agent who is identical with the patient. There are many languages which derive an agentless 'broda' with 'broda vo'a' or 'sezybroda', but that is somewhat idiomatic and, I think, out of place in lojban. If you don't think of lujvo components as anything more than mnemonics, then maybe that is not a problem, but for me it is completely against the spirit of lojban. (I concede that 'zilpavyxru' would have the necessary meaning, but it is unnecessarily long and complicated.) > 2) The universality of removing agent places was violated by the explicit > movement she remembered in the reverse direction in the case of sisti. I > haven't checked whether she remembered correctly, but she has a better > memory for such things than I do. > > 3) The lack of uniformity re sisti, fendi, ganzu means that changing for > the sake of uniformity is more than changing just a single word. Now we > are starting to get out of the "fix the errors" mode and into "impose new > design criteria" mode. This threatens the whole concept of the baseline, > because if we are willing to fix these things, I am sure a list of other > changes on the same level will be proposed that would be major and > language-disrupting (and even worse if the change consideration extends to > the actual words themselves, e.g. the set of culture words, or the gismu > Jorge thinks should not exist). The baseline exists to stop this kind of > movement before it starts. I think that best solution to this, rather than changing the place structure of 'xruti', is to create a new gismu using the gismu algorithm. This will preserve everyone's existing lojban and the baseline, and should also satisfy those clamoring for the change, since an extra gismu will not hurt anything, and it will be easier to get people to start using a new gismu correctly, than to get them to use 'xruti' in a way inconsistent with the baseline. mu'o mi'e .adam. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/