From sentto-44114-15221-1030021740-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Aug 22 06:09:34 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.101]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17hriN-0000Pg-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:09:31 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15221-1030021740-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Aug 2002 13:09:00 -0000 X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 22 Aug 2002 13:08:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 46058 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2002 13:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Aug 2002 13:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.240.142) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Aug 2002 13:08:59 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:08:59 -0700 Received: from 200.49.74.2 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:08:58 GMT To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2002 13:08:59.0202 (UTC) FILETIME=[14013A20:01C249DD] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.49.74.2] X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:08:58 +0000 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I like chocolate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 751 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list la pycyn cusku di'e ><< > > Because it doesn't correspond to anything in natlangs as far > > as I can tell. > > >> > >The easiest similarity I can think of is indirect discourse: Jack says "I >know the bitch is asleep" and you, being nice, report to others "Jack knows >that Jill is asleep." Different events but out of the same class and (in >this case as we are constructing it) ones both of which Jack knows. But that is not a problematic case. A problematic case would be: la djak na'e djuno lo du'u la djil sipna Jack ignores (some) that Jill is asleep. Because, even though he does know the relevant 'that Jill is asleep', he doesn't know all the 'that Jill is asleep' that there are. Anything like {la djak na'e djuno lo du'u la djil sipna} would be false in English, but the Lojban is true. ><< > ><< > >{tu'o} suggests itself to me: the non-quantifier quantifier. > >I suppose I have been using {lo'e} as {tu'o lo}. > > >> > >And this differs from {su'o lo} exactly how? > >In that tu'o does not quantify over the members of lo'i. >It only extracts the intension. > >> >I'm not at all sure what "extracts the intension" means and, insofar as I >do >understand it, I don't see how it applies. Extracting intensions is not a >quantifier's job, it is, if anything like that, to extract the extensions >-- >which is what is wanted here. That's why I said that {tu'o} is a non-quantifier, and that it does not quantify over the members of lo'i. Quantifiers always run over the extension, and tu'o blocks the move to the extension. ><< >is there any way to refer to occasions >in Lojban? > >> > >The way we always do: pin them down with an explicit or implicit hook to >the >real world, {ca} or {vi} or... or by the nature of the selbri to which they >attach. Then {re nu mi citka lo cakla} could be used to refer to occasions after all, if we assume an implicit hook to the real world. It could mean {re nu mi pu citka lo cakla}. But if {pu} hooks it to the real world, how do we get a token {nu mi pu citka lo cakla}? Now you're saying that it is the nature of the selbri to which it attaches that selects whether {lo nu broda} is taken from a set of tokens or a set of instances. Places that create token contexts. Something similar to places that create intensional contexts. That's not the Lojban I know. In my view, le/lo broda always selects instances (be they real or imaginary) from the class of broda (be it a class of concrete objects, events or anything else). mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/mG3HAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/