From sentto-44114-15790-1032287797-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 11:38:49 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.78]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17rNFG-0005Zo-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:38:46 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15790-1032287797-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2002 18:36:37 -0000 X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 17 Sep 2002 18:36:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 819 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2002 18:36:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Sep 2002 18:36:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.138) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2002 18:36:36 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:36:36 -0700 Received: from 200.49.74.2 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:36:36 GMT To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2002 18:36:36.0594 (UTC) FILETIME=[2776B520:01C25E79] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.49.74.2] X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:36:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I like chocolate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1278 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list la pycyn cusku di'e >I agree that "generic" might be misleading. Is it your term or mine -- or >And's? In any case, can you suggest a better? I think any translation of {lo'e broda} that starts with "the" will be misleading, as English "the" is hardly ever used for this sense. >Anyhow, do you understand my reading of your {lo'e}? If so, can you say >what >is wrong with it as a step toward articulating the correct position? I don't fully understand your reading of it, but it does seem like we're converging on to something. What do you think of the following analysis (based on And's ideas): For a given {broda}, we define the predicate {kairbroda}, so that it means "x1 is broda to something that has property x2". (Let's assume broda has only two places, other places would remain for kairbroda the same as for broda). We can now give a precise definition of {broda} in terms of {kairbroda}: ko'a broda ko'e = ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u ce'u du ko'e ko'a is broda to ko'e = ko'a is broda to something that has the property of being ko'e Now if we introduce quantifiers: da zo'u ko'a broda da = da zo'u ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u ce'u du da The same for {da poi brode}, which is {lo brode}, and which can be moved away from the prenex, but only in the first expression: ko'a broda lo brode = da poi brode zo'u ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u ce'u du da It is clear that we cannot remove {da poi brode} from the prenex in the right hand side expression, because that would put it inside of du'u, and the sense of the whole expression would change. Now, what about the expression {ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u ce'u du lo brode}? Is there no way to express it with broda as the selbri? Let's define {lo'e brode} such that: ko'a broda lo'e brode = ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u ce'u du lo brode But {ce'u du lo brode} is just {ce'u brode}, so we can simplify a bit more: ko'a broda lo'e brode = ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u ce'u brode This can be repeated for {lo'e brode} in x1 or any other place just by defining the appropriate corresponding selbri. I think this analysis works for all the "intensional context" selbri (indeed the redefinition of {sisku} was an attempt to do something like this, the gi'uste {sisku} corresponds to the {kairsisku} that one has to define in order to give the expansion of {sisku lo'e brode} with original {sisku}. But the same expansion applies to every selbri, not just the "intensional context" ones. For example: ko'a viska lo'e broda = ko'a kairviska tu'o du'u ce'u broda He sees-something-with-the-property-of being broda (No claim that there is something such that it is seen, the "something" of the English gloss is part of the predicate. Normally of course there will be something that is seen, but this is not part of what is claimed.) mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/