From sentto-44114-15802-1032319517-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Sep 17 20:27:29 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.90]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17rVUr-0007Re-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:27:25 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15802-1032319517-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Sep 2002 03:25:17 -0000 X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 18 Sep 2002 03:25:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 59142 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2002 03:25:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Sep 2002 03:25:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.114) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Sep 2002 03:25:16 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:25:16 -0700 Received: from 200.69.6.21 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 03:25:15 GMT To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2002 03:25:16.0061 (UTC) FILETIME=[01BD44D0:01C25EC3] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.69.6.21] X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 03:25:15 +0000 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I like chocolate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1290 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list la pycyn cusku di'e << >ko'a broda ko'e = ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u ce'u du ko'e > >> >That works out all right, but I would resent calling RHS a *definition* of >LHS; if any thing, the defining goes the other way -- as the status of the >words involved quite rightly suggest. But the RHS is not fully defined by that expression. I think you can't express what {ko'a kairbroda ko'e} means in terms of {broda}. At least I don't see an easy way to do it. In any case, it doesn't matter. All that matters for our purposes is that the two expressions be equivalent. << >ko'a broda lo brode = da poi brode zo'u ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u > ce'u du da > >It is clear that we cannot remove {da poi brode} from the >prenex in the right hand side expression, because that would >put it inside of du'u, and the sense of the whole expression >would change. > >> >This is not obvious and I am inclined at first glance to think it false. Then this is where we part. To me {da zo'u broda tu'a da} makes a different klaim than {broda tu'a da}, where the quantification of {da} is within the {tu'a} abstraction. I don't know how you can defend the {tu'a} expressions for intensional contexts if you don't think so. >Quantifying in -- moving a quantifier from outside an intensional context >to >inside -- is rarely a problem, though some information information may be >lost. If some information is lost then you can't do it and keep the same meaning. I said nothing about one way entailment. You have to be able to move in and out for them to be equivalent. Well, at least we don't need to argue anymore. You have my precise definition, and we know exactly where we disagree. This is my definition of {lo'e}: ko'a broda lo'e brode = ko'a kairbroda tu'o du'u ce'u brode And {kairbroda} is an ordinary jvajvo from {ckaji broda}, with place structure b1 (b2=c1) c2 b3 b4 b5 ... >Your move is somewhat like the one in getting to the present {sisku} Yes, as I said, the official {sisku} would correspond to {kairsisku} if {sisku} was defined as I favour, so that I can say {mi sisku le mi santa} for "I am looking for my umbrella". With that definition {mi sisku lo'e santa} is {mi kairsisku tu'o du'u ce'u santa}, which is exactly how the official definition (my {kairsisku} here) is supposed to be used, to say "I'm looking for an umbrella" without claiming that there is an umbrella being sought by me. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/