From sentto-44114-16008-1032740349-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Sep 22 17:21:51 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 22 Sep 2002 17:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.85]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17tGyz-0005o4-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 17:21:49 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16008-1032740349-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2002 00:19:09 -0000 X-Sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 23 Sep 2002 00:19:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 73134 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2002 00:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2002 00:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailbox-13.st1.spray.net) (212.78.202.113) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2002 00:19:09 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-69-218.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.69.218]) by mailbox-13.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with SMTP id F157E3DCE4 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 02:19:06 +0200 (DST) To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <35.2d4cd624.2abf81b4@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 01:20:41 +0100 Subject: [lojban] Re: tu'o usage Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1496 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list pc: > a.rosta@lycos.co.uk writes: > << > > where there is dispute about whether some > piece of meaning is within the scope of what is asserted or > outside it (i.e. presupposed/conventionally implicated), the > default/null hypothesis is that it is within. This is because > Lojban makes little if any use of presupposition/conventional > implicature (outside of UI, at least), does not discuss it in > Woldy, and has no established tradition of acknowledging its > existence in Lojban. > > >> > I am hesitant to agree to such a sweeping principle, lest it be > wielded without looking at the case at issue and hence stifle debate. The advantage of having sweeping principles is precisely that they give a default -- that ceteris paribus they tell us what X means, when X is a case that has not properly been considered hitherto. Generally the default principle is the one with the greatest generality. That does not been that motivated exceptions aren't allowed. For example, the rule that a sumti is quantified in the local bridi is overridden by tu'a-marked sumti on sound utilitarian grounds. > However, I thnk that there are a variety of facts that suggest that > internal quantification is presuppositional. Several have been > mentioned already in this discussion, Can you remind me what they were? They must have passed me by without my noticing. > but the main one has not: the > implicit {su'o} and {ro} and actually stated numbers as well, are > never changed at the passage of a negation boundary: the implicit > value with {le} is {su'o} throughout, and for {lo}, {ro}. These > values can be inserted in any context without changing the utterance > as a whole. Can you give examples? What you say doesn't seem true to me, but I think I may be missing your intended point. The point needs to be stated about {lo}, not {le}, because the internals of {le} sumti scope outside everything. E.g. {le broda na brode} is not true if the referent is brode but not broda. --And. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/ySSFAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/