From sentto-44114-16214-1033289141-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 01:49:05 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 29 Sep 2002 01:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.100]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17vZl8-000297-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 01:49:02 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16214-1033289141-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Sep 2002 08:45:41 -0000 X-Sender: nessus@free.fr X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 29 Sep 2002 08:45:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 22533 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2002 08:45:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Sep 2002 08:45:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr) (193.252.19.25) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 2002 08:45:39 -0000 Received: from mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.69) by mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D760C2500DD3EF5 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:45:39 +0200 Received: from ftiq2awxk6 (193.248.42.239) by mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D801204009F5A9A for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:45:39 +0200 Message-ID: <008801c26796$56127240$ef2af8c1@ftiq2awxk6> To: "Lojban@Yahoogroups. Com" References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Lionel Vidal" X-Yahoo-Profile: cmacinf MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:57:00 +0200 Subject: [lojban] Re: metre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 X-archive-position: 1702 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nessus@free.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list And: > 3. > Do you think that the native metres of Lojbanistan are made > up of regular patterns of strong and weak syllables? Greg: >Yes, what else would they be made up of ? Many things are possible apart from patterns of weak and strong syllables. Here are just a few, picked from existing natlangs: - only the number of syllables counts (with sometimes a slightly different definition for the poetic syllable), usually following a repetitive pattern (all verses worth 12, or 12-8 repeated or...); the repartition of weak and strong syllables are still used to give internal tempi to the metres. - some phonemes are classified (usually vowels) and the metre consists of some patterns of phonemes classes. - a metre is a whole paragraph (in french it is called a poetic 'verset', but I did not find an english word for it), using a particular structure, either in the sentences constructions, the number of syllables of each sentences, or even the semantic structure alone (or any mix). - only the length of the syllables (which is defined for each) are used in the patterns (note that this can be different from the strong or weak syllables: for instance the latin metre is mostly externally based on syllable length patterns but with an internal tempo given by the stressed syllables, which could be subtly differently spreaded in the verse) .... Now what could be call a native metre in any language? In most natlangs people are still arguing on what should be called native. IMO, there is none intrinsically, only the poet himself can make by its talent a metre 'native'. To take the latin example again, before Virgile, the native metre was thought to be the 'vers saturnien', but after Virgile, the 'hexametre dactylique' (sorry I don't know the english glosses for technical poetic terms), borrowed from Greece, became indeed the native metre, not because of any superior intrinsic values well adapted to latin (although it has some obviously, but like many others), but mainly because Virgiles and others geniuses used it as their main medium to magnify latin. In other words, write good enough poetry, and the metre you chose will be the native one :-) -- Lionel ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/