From sentto-44114-16356-1033605553-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 02 17:43:05 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.69]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17wu4w-0007cx-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:42:59 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16356-1033605553-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2002 00:39:13 -0000 X-Sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 00:39:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 42546 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 00:39:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 00:39:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailbox-7.st1.spray.net) (212.78.202.107) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 00:39:13 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-69-80.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.69.80]) by mailbox-7.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04757264DE for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2002 02:39:11 +0200 (DST) To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <004101c267f1$09a235c0$d904f8c1@ftiq2awxk6> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 01:40:48 +0100 Subject: [lojban] Re: sticky hypothesis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1845 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Lionel: > xorxes: > > The kind of thing I'm thinking is that {ru'a} asks the listener > > to consider what is said as if it were part of the real world, > > whereas {da'i} marks it as not part of the real world and not to > > be taken as such. > > For example: > > ru'a la djan zvati la paris i ru'acu'i ju'o dy penmi la meris > > i ru'anai my zvati py > > Let's assume John is in Paris. In that case, surely he met Mary. > > She is there (independently of our hypothesis). > > da'i la djan zvati la paris i da'i ju'o dy penmi la meris > > i da'inai my zvati py > > John would be in Paris (but isn't). He would surely meet Mary. > > She is there. > > So in this interpretation, {da'i} would be used for things I know > false the moment I say it, and {ru'a} for things I don't know the truth > value... this distinction coud indeed be useful in complex reasonning > to give an hint to the reader on the forthcoming conclusion > on the hypothesis validity. I see da'i/ru'e as not having anything to do with what is or isn't known to be true. Rather, I see {da'i} as simply tossing the idea out, rather as if the sentence {da'i broda} were like the sentence {da du'u broda} -- it is presented purely as a proposition with no claim at all about whether it is true. {ru'e}, on the other hand, says "this may or may not be true, but I'm going to proceed as though it is true". On this understanding, {ru'e} is correctly classified as an evidential. As for the classification of {da'i} as a 'discursive', this is less meaningful, partly because 'discursive' has (afaik) no standard meaning in linguistics and partly because it seems a bit of a dustbin category. Along with another discursive, {xu}, it expresses illocutionary force, but Jorge's interpretation of some attitudinals like {ei} and {au} do that too. --And. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/