From sentto-44114-16540-1034176437-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 09 11:41:10 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.88]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17zLlX-0004ea-03 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:41:03 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16540-1034176437-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2002 15:13:57 -0000 X-Sender: gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 9 Oct 2002 15:13:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 39042 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2002 15:13:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Oct 2002 15:13:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta3n.bluewin.ch) (195.186.1.212) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Oct 2002 15:13:56 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (213.3.161.71) by mta3n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.5.027) id 3DA3BF5C000175F9 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:13:55 +0200 Message-ID: <008a01c26fa6$7a3a71a0$8f9fca3e@oemcomputer> To: "jboste" References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "G. Dyke" X-Yahoo-Profile: gregvdyke MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:14:28 +0200 Subject: [lojban] Alice style and finalisation (was:The Alice Translation Has Moved And Changed) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 2061 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list > > As an example: I use {li re ji'i ci} to translate "(approximately) > two or three". Pierre prefers {li re bi'i ci} for this, so he > changes it (perhaps thinking that it was a typo, or perhaps just > because he thinks it is more correct). We could argue which one > is better, but I have used this expression in maybe ten or more > places in the book, so changing just one is not really an > improvement. When I notice the change, I change it back. How > does this end? The most stubborn wins? I propose that all those who did each individual part propose a version which they deem final. If all are in agreement (maybe the original translators, plus whoever chooses to do comments - read: I want a say in this) then we lock that page. The only style I have seen so far is extensive following of English word-order and typical Llambian lack of {.}, both of which I happen to agree with, the first for following the thought order of the original, the second as a general principle. I think we should add -Voluntary exclusion of any semantic forms which try to copy the idiom of English too closely. My main example at the moment is chapter1, paragraph 3: {i la'e di'u vasru no ba'e mutce be le ka ju'ixlu} "There was nothing so VERY remarkable in that" which I think should be {i la'e di'u no'e ba'e mutce le ka cizra}. Another example of what I'd like more of is using connectives in tanru like the {no pixra ja nuncasnu} of the first paragraph - I also feel we should strive for some sort of logical correctness, in particular saying "zukte fi zi'o" rather than "zukte fi noda". That particular example, I now consider as correct, as it means "I don't {zukte} because I don't have a {te zukte}", which rather acurately translates "having nothing to do". But in general, such constructions are not correct, because they create an unintended negative sentence which does not fully express what we want to say. Along the same vein is potential inclusion of ce'u in all ka, and maybe some sort of rigour in NU-gadri. - Excessive use of selma'o UI whenever possible peipe'i mu'o mi'e greg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/