From sentto-44114-18042-1039911215-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Dec 14 16:14:18 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.84]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 18NMQ7-0005dS-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:14:11 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-18042-1039911215-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 66736 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao04.cox.net) (68.1.17.241) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20021215001333.HMDF22825.lakemtao04.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:13:33 -0500 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20021214190430.03176d90@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 To: In-Reply-To: <0212141233150J.03697@neofelis> From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:12:26 -0500 Subject: [lojban] Re: fu'ivla tarmi preti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 3553 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list At 12:33 PM 12/14/02 -0500, Pierre Abbat wrote: >According to the Book (or at least the downloadable version), a brivla may >not contain a cluster of more than three consonants, and the second pair in a >cluster must be an initial consonant pair. These rules are violated by the >undefined fu'ivla {bongnanba} and by many type-3 fu'ivla such as >{matcrflokati} and {cidjrspageti}. The rule as I understand it is that there >may not be more than three consonants other than 'r', 'l', 'n', and 'm' in a >row. The rule as implemented in vlatai is that there may not be more than >three non-vocalic consonants in a row, where 'r', 'n', 'l', or 'm' is a >vocalic consonant iff it is between two consonants. Thus {damskrima}, which I >deem valid, is rejected by vlatai, while it accepts {dapmskrima} and >{dasktrsktima}. What is the correct rule? Nora is of the opinion (which I would probably agree with if I thought about it) that Cowan (and I before him) were not considering fu'ivla when writing most of the morphology rules, because then as now, fu'ivla were considered unimportant fill-ins that did not need careful definition (and indeed such definition was probably impossible). Actually, I think we thought of fu'ivla as being closer to names in terms of rules than brivla. If you look in the section on fu'ivla (pardon the codes, since this came from the master copy with indexing codes, etc. >The form of a >fu'ivla reliably distinguishes it from both the gismu and the cmavo. Like >cultural gismu, fu'ivla are generally based on a word from a single >non-Lojban lan­guage. The word is borrowed(actually copied, hence the >Lojban tanru fukpi valsi) from the other language and Lojbanized the >phonemes are converted to their closest Lojban equivalent and >modifications are made as necessary to make the word a legitimate Lojban >fu'ivla-form word. All fu'ivla: > >

**************************************** >cluster in">

1)
must contain a consonant cluster >in the first five letters of the word; if this consonant cluster is at the >beginning, it must ei­ther be a permissible initial consonant pair, or a >longer cluster such that each pair of adjacent conso­nants in the cluster >is a permissi­ble initial consonant pair: spraileis ac­ceptable, but not >ktraileor trkaile; ***************************************** >

2)
must end in one or more vowels; > >
3)
must not >be gismu or lujvo, or any combination of cmavo, gismu, and lujvo; >furthermore, a fu'ivla with a CV cmavo joined to the front of it must not >have the form of a lujvo (the so-called slinku'i test, not discussed >further in this book); > >
prohibition from fu'ivla">
4)
cannot contain y, >although they may contain syllabic pro­nunciations of Lojban consonants; > >
5)
like other >brivla, are stressed on the penultimate syllable. ************************************************** >
Note that consonant triples or >larger clusters that are not at the be­ginning of a fu'ivla can be quite >flexible, as long as all consonant pairs are permissible. There is no need >to re­strict fu'ivla clusters to permis­sible initial pairs except at the >beginning. **************************************************** >

> >construction">construction">This is a fairly liberal definition and allows quite a lot >of possi­bilities within fu'ivla space. Stage 3 fu'ivla can be made easily >on the fly, as lujvo can, because the procedure for forming them always >guarantees a word that cannot violate any of the rules. Stage 4 fu'ivla >require running tests that are not simple to characterize or perform, and >should be made only after deliberation and by someone knowl­edgeable about >all the considerations that apply. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/