From sentto-44114-19375-1050906524-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 23:29:22 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.107]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 197Unk-0002l3-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:29:16 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-19375-1050906524-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Apr 2003 06:28:45 -0000 X-Sender: mathmaniac@hanmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 06:28:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 66228 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 06:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 06:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 06:28:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Apr 2003 06:28:44 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "sshiskom" X-Originating-IP: 143.248.205.98 X-Yahoo-Profile: sshiskom MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 06:28:43 -0000 Subject: [lojban] zo'e (was Re: The art of place structure) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 4874 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mathmaniac@hanmail.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Rob Speer wrote: >> Note that you don't need the {fa zo'e zo'e} at all. >> Any place that is left out is automatically {zo'e}. And eye_onus wrote: > Yes, I understand that much. I was using {zo'e zo'e} as > in "something something". Not as in > {mi klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e} is "I go" but as in > {mi klama zo'e} to express "I go to (something)". > Basically, I was using the word {zo'e} to the lojban for > "something", or "insert word that makes sense here." That's good question! And it's what {zu'i} is all about. Following is an excerpt from RefGram Chap. 7: ---- zo'e KOhA zo'e-series: the obvious value zu'i KOhA zo'e-series: the typical value The cmavo of the zo'e-series represent indefinite, unspecified sumti. The cmavo ``zo'e'' represents an elliptical value for this sumti place; it is the optional spoken place holder when a sumti is skipped without being specified. Note that the elliptical value is not always the typical value. The properties of ellipsis lead to an elliptical sumti being defined as ``whatever I want it to mean but haven't bothered to figure out, or figure out how to express''. The cmavo ``zu'i'', on the other hand, represents the typical value for this place of this bridi: 7.1) mi klama le bartu be le zdani le nenri be le zdani zu'i zu'i I go to-the outside of the house from-the inside of the house [by-typical-route] [by-typical-means] In Example 7.1, the first ``zu'i'' probably means something like ``by the door'', and the second ``zu'i'' probably means something like ``on foot'', those being the typical route and means for leaving a house. On the other hand, if you are at the top of a high rise during a fire, neither ``zu'i'' is appropriate. It's also common to use ``zu'i'' in ``by standard'' places. ---- mi'e sanxiyn. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/