From sentto-44114-19874-1053772366-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 24 03:36:00 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 24 May 2003 03:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.101]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19JWL3-00086Q-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sat, 24 May 2003 03:33:22 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-19874-1053772366-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2003 10:32:46 -0000 X-Sender: opoudjis@optushome.com.au X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45404 invoked from network); 24 May 2003 10:32:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 May 2003 10:32:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au) (210.49.20.149) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 May 2003 10:32:45 -0000 Received: from optushome.com.au (c17354.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.155.214]) by mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4OAWha11377 for ; Sat, 24 May 2003 20:32:43 +1000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-Id: <0D6B1A8E-8DD3-11D7-AC97-003065D4EC72@optushome.com.au> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) From: Nick Nicholas X-Yahoo-Profile: opoudjis MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:32:43 +1000 Subject: [lojban] bpfk vs jbovlaste Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 5372 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: opoudjis@optushome.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Another diplomatic success, I see. :-1/2 Look, I have nothing but contempt for exptal gismu (as distinct from exptal cmavo), and my vote on any dictionary produced under bpfk auspices would be to either leave them out, or include heavy disclaimers and canonical alternatives. And I'm reasonably confident that peer pressure from other Lojbanists will be the most effective way of policing this. But jbovlaste was not initially intended to be an arm of the bpfk, and the bpfk is nowhere near undertaking any review of it. Furthermore, those seditious, baseline-undermining souls who have been entering exptal gismu have nonetheless had the courtesy to clearly label them as such -- for which I am grateful. If you don't understand the difference between experimental gismu and canonical gismu when looking up a dictionary, you have no business using the dictionary in the first place. (What the hell, do we think people will be using jbovlaste successfully without first understanding such basic concepts? That beginners will be using the dictionary before they read its preface?) And the bottom line is, if people want canonical expressions for 'parasite', they have to propose them to jbovlaste, and give people a canonical alternative. The bpfk in my view has the same task with Jorge's non-baseline usages. I think Jorge is damaging Lojban by deviating from the baseline, but if I am to combat this legitimately, I need to provide Jorge with baseline-compatible alternatives, so that he can say what he legitimately needs to say. Right now, the onus is on the fundamentalist, not the revisionist, to prove that the baseline version of the language really is as expressive as the revisionists want it to be. If you don't like parji on jbovlaste, saying jbovlaste is useless is not going to be particularly effective. Jay has done the right thing by cordoning off experimental qua experimental; we know what status that confers, and we will decide what that will mean for any future publications, and to what extent the LLG polices canonicity or not in its publications. I'm still recovering from the flu, so no bpfk work from me this weekend either. :-( Good thing semester's over next week... ____.____1____.____2____.____3____.____4____.____5____.____6____.____7__ When in doubt, Dr Nick Nicholas, French & Italian Studies, --- DOUBT! nickn@unimelb.edu.au University of (- me) http://www.opoudjis.net Melbourne, Australia ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/