From sentto-44114-19908-1053959475-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon May 26 07:32:13 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 26 May 2003 07:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.66]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19KJ0v-0004S0-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Mon, 26 May 2003 07:31:49 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-19908-1053959475-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 May 2003 14:31:18 -0000 X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76016 invoked from network); 26 May 2003 14:31:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 May 2003 14:31:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao02.cox.net) (68.1.17.243) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 May 2003 14:31:10 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org ([68.100.92.1]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030526143109.XKIC24359.lakemtao02.cox.net@bob.lojban.org> for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 10:31:09 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030526100728.0300dd90@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 To: In-Reply-To: References: <7FC7B245-8DD5-11D7-AC97-003065D4EC72@optushome.com.au> From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:30:36 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: emotions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 5406 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list At 09:50 AM 5/26/03 +0100, And Rosta wrote: >Nick to Lojbab: > > > I can't support a policy of "usage will decide" along with a > > > policy that promotes non-baseline solutions as being equal to > > > baseline-compliant solutions > > > > Well, you know what I think of your "usage will decide", and how it > > inherently undermines any baseline.. I first note in answer to Nick that the concept of "usage will decide" was intended to apply to selection among multiple options built into the language. This concept has unfortunately been extended to inventing non-baseline solutions and hoping that they catch on enough to force a change in the baseline. >Wholly without heat, I observe that I don't understand the >either of you's rationale. We need a baseline (frozen or not) so >that we are all (a) speaking the same language & (b) truly speaking >a language (& not making it up as we go along, pidginwise). But the >evidence of natural language is that vocabulary innovation is >the most innocuous and useful variety of usage deciding. Yes. And I WANT vocabulary innovation. But I'd like it to proceed along the lines of the design-intent, with a priority on tanru/lujvo for common words, Type III fu'ivla for uncommon words, with frequent usage of the latter justifying the coining of a Type IV shorter version, and rafsi fu'ivla for those concepts that people think deserve a short form from the start because they want to sue them in lujvo. I also think that, while nonce usage will "invent" lots of words, serious vocabulary development of a non-nonce type should involve checking how the concept is represented in multiple languages including some non-European ones. >It's >innocuous because there is scant room for misunderstanding (because >if a word is novel, there is no competing prior definition for >it) -- the risk of misunderstanding is much more pernicious >than the risk of not understanding at all, and useful for obvious >reasons. For me, the risk is not one of misunderstanding, but of the establishment of bad habits early in the vocabulary development that persist, and in fact create problems later. JCB had the habit in the 70s of coining a new gismu that seemed useful at the moment, but which really had no justification as a root word in the language. Thus TLI Loglan has gismu for "olive", "football" (ambiguously never defined as to whether he meant this to be soccer or American rugby), sodium, beefsteak, and billiards. All of these should have been lujvo, or fu'ivla if there was no obvious lujvo. But in the 70s, there was no distinct fu'ivla form, so borrowings were in the morphological form of gismu and lujvo. I'm fighting the recurrence of this bad habit. >Furthermore, the value of a baseline (as opposed to >frozenness) is that it provides some sort of shared explicit >reference standard. If jbovlaste were used as such, then an >experimental gismu listed in jbovlaste would be more part of >the baseline than a lujvo that is not listed. Indeed. And it is obvious that jbovlaste will become such a reference standard whether it is approved as a "baseline" or not. >And I don't see any problem with that. Anybody encountering {parji} will >either >know it or not understand it and look it up in jbovlaste, just >as with any other gismu. Except that there aren't supposed to be any experimental gismu. Indeed some of them, including the infamous gumri, were explicitly voted out of the language by the membership (and I lost on that vote, so that in fighting gumri, I fight for a principle over my own preferences for the language). lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org ------------------------ Yahoo! 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