From phma@ixazon.dynip.com Mon May 26 19:15:25 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 26 May 2003 19:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 208-150-110-21-adsl.precisionet.net ([208.150.110.21] helo=blackcat.ixazon.lan) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19KTzi-0001Ld-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 26 May 2003 19:15:19 -0700 Received: by blackcat.ixazon.lan (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BA22A44A2; Tue, 27 May 2003 02:14:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Pierre Abbat Organization: dis To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: emotions Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:14:47 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030527013801.25548.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030527013801.25548.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305262214.47241.phma@webjockey.net> X-archive-position: 5423 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@webjockey.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Monday 26 May 2003 21:38, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: li'o > Even so, there were some gaps left. For example, one that came up > recently on the list: > > tirna sance > viska jvinu > sumne panci > pencu tengu > ????? vrusi Another one: bratu, snime, *sicpi. carvi doesn't mean "is rain"; it refers to the falling of any kind of precipitation. Also, the set of bird gismu is decidedly lopsided: two Anseriformes, two Galliformes, and none of any other order including the most speciose by far, Passeriformes. > As for usability in lujvo, one that I've often missed is something > correponding to Esperanto -inda, "deserving of". > > > 5. Words made from one language, as parji was, should be fu'ivla. > > The "ji" part seems like it could be from Chinese, but I wouldn't > really know. English-only would have given 'parsi', no? > > > Whether > > people think there is a lot of meaning to the 6-language word-making, it > > offers a couple of things: an objective way to decide the "best form", > > dissociation of the word from the keyword in any single source language, > > so that it is less likely to be encoded English (or whatever language). > > This goal was sort of defeated by the English keyword list. People > learn the keywords to the point that they sometimes use the wrong > place structure because of a misleading keyword. > > > This > > is also why fu'ivla should be dispreferred when one can make a lujvo: a > > lujvo has its own lojbanic meaning, whereas a fu'ivla starts with the > > meaning in some other language and is not really lojbanic. lujvo-making > > forces you to think about meaning, and jvajvo force you to think about > > place structures (whether you choose to follow jvojva or not, considering > > them is a good idea). > > Nora looked up other experimental gismu in jbovlaste, and points > > out that even more than parji, "mango" has no business as a gismu, and > > benzo is almost as questionable. > > And that's about the whole list, isn't it? It seems like you are making > the issue seem far bigger than it really is. Even if all the experimental > gismu from the wiki were transferred to jbovlaste, I don't think they are > more than 50, and almost all of them are cultural words. A few words like > mango, pitsa or taksi have a special status in that they are international > _and_ are already gismu-form without any need of adaptation. It is hard > to resist those, since they don't even need a dictionary definition in > order to be understood. I'm sure those will end up as part of the language > in any case. "mango", as I've pointed out before, is almost the same in five of the six languages (it's called variants of "ampah" in Indic) and several of the next six. It is also one of the most popular fruits in the world - the most popular, I've read. phma