From sentto-44114-20460-1058912413-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 15:21:08 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.101]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19f5V8-0006Fl-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:20:54 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-20460-1058912413-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jul 2003 22:20:16 -0000 X-Sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75980 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2003 22:20:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Jul 2003 22:20:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lmsmtp01.st1.spray.net) (212.78.202.111) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2003 22:20:12 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-53-76.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.53.76]) by lmsmtp01.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474031E78D; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:20:10 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <005001c3509f$6c991620$c2e1fea9@oemcomputer> To: , "c1tk" References: Organization: Livagian Consulate X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 23:20:07 +0100 Subject: [lojban] Re: zo'e, zi'o (was: Re: use of ko'a) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 5956 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list cltk (who ar you?): > [And Rosta:] > > > The last time this was discussed (on jboske), the eventual consensus > > among > > the discussants (including me & Lojbab; I can't remember who else) > > was that > > zo'e can be zi'o. But overt zo'e cannot in good Gricean faith be > > (Perhaps I should be posting to jboske, but I thought I would rant > here first.) > > This is bad -- if it becomes official, I will have to rename the > language "tolylojban". The main problem is that each gismu can acquire > many meanings, so instead of a single predicate tavla(w, x, y, z) we > have several underlying predicates tavla_0() (for e.g. {tavla}), > tavla_1(w) (for e.g. {mi tavla}), tavla_2(x, y) (for e.g. {tavla do > ri}), etc. And I thought the Lojban creators were bent on removing > polysemy... > > Besides, there are better ways to solve the gismu blotation problem > than to muck up the semantics of the whole language, such as removing > little-used role places, and creating lujvo for specific senses. > > Sorry, just had to rant. Or contribute to the BF, where this will presumably come up. I would have sent this to the BF forum, but I'm not sure who you are, so can't be sure you're there. Re blotation, removing little-used role places is not a politically acceptable solution. Usage has proved that creating lujvo is not a workable solution either; people just ignore unwanted places. Re tolylogji, it is a basic principle of Lojban design that concision is inversely proportional to precision, and ellipsis and vagueness generally go hand in hand. The vagueness in question -- between alternative tavla predicates -- is resolvable by avoiding the ellipsis. --And. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sOykFB/k9VGAA/ySSFAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/