From arj@nvg.org Sun Sep 14 10:20:40 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67] ident=[qRHs1hLwgoLeeO3L8vK/eX/L5GZaMa7e]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19yaY4-0006V6-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:20:32 -0700 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:32441 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE[2]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id convert rfc822-to-quoted-printable; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:20:24 +0200 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:19:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Arnt Richard Johansen X-X-Sender: arj@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: brivla se brivla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-archive-position: 6160 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: arj@nvg.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, xah wrote: > on reading _What is lojban_ edited by Nick Nicholas & John Cowan, > Chapter 3. Diagrammed Summary of Lojban Grammar (comp.html), middle on > tanru, i got confused about tanru where a conversion 'se' is placed in > between brivla. > > what does it mean when se is place between brivla? It means that you have a tanru, consisting of the first (unconverted) brivla, which modifies the second (converted) brivla. > i thought it is not legal but the doc says otherwise. If i say > > mi sutra klama do "I quickly come to you" > > with the use of se it would be > > do se sutra klama mi "You quickly come to me". Y'know, "sutra" is not a very good example here, because both its places gloss as "quick" - the x1 is the agent who is quick, and x2 is the action that is being performed quickly by the agent. So let us invent another example: 1. mi dunda jarco do = (one interpretation) "I show you the donator" 2. mi se dunda jarco do = (one interpretation) "I show you the present" If you want to convert the entire tanru, you need "ke" to keep the conversion cmavo from binding closely to only one brivla: 3. do se ke dunda jarco mi Has the same meaning as example 1. Hope this helps. -- Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ På hjul er du kjørende.